Thursday, August 03, 2006

Another Reason to Tell Them the Truth in the First Place

An important part of the radicals' agenda against the Montgomery County sex-ed curriculum has to do with the idea that gay people choose to be gay, or, to put it another way, that they could choose not to be. Obviously, a big part of this has to do with defining the word -- more than the word, the concept, really. "Gay" is a word that has only within our lifetimes come into common usage, and it is one of those that gets flakey when you look at it too closely.

Let's say you're talking about a man who is attracted to other men, dates other men, and, if you asked him, would tell you he's gay. OK, except for those holdouts who don't like the cheerfulness of the word, we would be comfortable calling this person "gay." Several features fall into line: physical attraction, behavior, self-identification, and identification by others. So this is a pretty easy case.

How about a man in prison who finds that he can gain protection and favors by performing sexually with other (male) prisoners, even though he only dated women before his sentence and will only date women afterwards? Here the behavior supports the term, but other factors are missing. He may even dress the part in order to make his role more obvious or more successful, but I don't think most of us would call him "gay."

The difficulty really comes to the fore in the opposite type of situation. Say there's a guy who is secretly attracted to men, but never acts on it. He presents himself to the world as straight, and puts his impulses out of his mind whenever he can. But he knows it's there. I get the feeling that guys like this typically think that other men suffer this same tendency, that straight guys in general actually lust after other men, but just don't say anything about it. Would you call this guy gay? I can imagine describing him as someone who is "really gay, but doesn't act like it," or even "actually gay, but doesn't know it." These last two cases suggest that we are talking about an essence, a quality of the person, more than any behavior.

Can you be gay and not know it? I have definitely seen guys who have not realized this about themselves, even though it is apparent to everyone else. So, yeah, if you asked me, I'd say this can happen.

I suppose, in general, the word should be used for the whole package -- sexual feelings, behavior consistent with that, self-identification, self-presentation.

The point is that some aspects of the whole package are, in fact, under conscious control. A man with homosexual feelings may choose not to act on them or even pretend to feel attracted to women, and to some extent I think a guy with those feelings can choose not to identify himself as gay.

Nobody really has a nice, clear answer about why some people are sexually attracted by members of their own sex, but it is a constant fact seen in every society. Most people understand that sex has something to do with love, and that there is something ... good .. about falling in love. It is not that hard, then, to understand why people who are attracted to others of their own sex would choose not to deny themselves the fulfillment that comes with falling in love, and the pleasure that comes with sex and intimacy.

On the other hand, there is a longstanding social circumscription that pressures people with homosexual feelings to either pretend they are straight or, at least, conceal their true feelings. This circumscription has been more or less crumbling for the past few decades, and we are now at a point where most members of our society are able to accept homosexuality.

Some men get trapped in the game of pretending, and this morning's New York Times has an interesting article about gay men who find themselves in a heterosexual marriage.
THEY spend decades denying their sexual confusion to themselves and others. They generally limit their encounters with men to anonymous one-night stands and tell all manner of lies if their wives suspect.

They consider themselves to be devoted husbands, conscientious fathers and suburban homeowners, and what typically brings them to the point of crisis in their 40’s, 50’s and even 60’s is their first emotional connection with another man.

For gay men in heterosexual marriages, even after the status quo becomes unbearable, the pull of domestic life remains powerful. Many are desperate to preserve their marriages — to continue reaping the emotional and financial support of wives, and domestic pleasures like tucking children in at night. When the Beard Is Too Painful to Remove

As MCPS considers how to present the topic of sexual orientation in the classroom, they need to be aware of the consequences. If you taught students that a gay person can just stop, that they can just decide to become straight and that's that, you might lead them down a path that leads to this, to secrets and lies and double-lives and broken marriages.
The demand for support groups for gay, married men, as well as traffic in Internet chat rooms, shows that so-called “Brokeback” marriages have hardly disappeared, as many experts assumed they would, even in an age when gay couples, in certain parts of the country, live openly and raise children just like any family.

Leaving a marriage and setting up housekeeping with a gay partner is not what most married gay men have in mind when they join a support group, according to Stephen McFadden, a clinical social worker, who runs such groups in Manhattan. Instead, Mr. McFadden and others in the field say, their clients generally start out committed to the opposite goal.

Well, yes, it would be handy, wouldn't it, if those feelings would just go away, if there really was such a thing as an "ex-gay."
Even after a pained awakening or acknowledgment of their sexual orientation, these men want to save their marriages, Mr. McFadden and others say, either by lying, promising their wives they will not have sex with men or persuading them to accept their double lives.

Yet, such arrangements succeed for only “a small percentage’’ of couples, Mr. McFadden and other therapists said, but the stubborn attempt often makes these men unwelcome or uncomfortable in support groups for gay fathers, which are easy to find but largely the province of men who are long divorced.

One support group member, Steve T., is a Long Island doctor, married to his high school sweetheart and the father of three school-age sons. He said he felt the sting of judgment when he tried a group for gay fathers. “They thought my desire to stay married was part of my denial,’’ said Dr. T., who would do almost anything to keep his family together and his suburban lifestyle intact, even after telling his wife that he is gay.

She is his “best friend’’ and the “perfect co-parent,’’ said the 44-year-old doctor, who agreed to be interviewed on condition he not be fully identified and his secrets thus revealed to relatives, neighbors and patients. He enjoys the social life of a popular suburban couple, adores his in-laws and wants to live in the same home as his children.

I am imagining what this is like to some of our readers who subscribe to the most sex-obsessed stereotypes. Can you guys picture this? A gay Dr. Ward Cleaver, sipping a beer and flipping burgers on the grill while the boys throw a football around.
But he also wants to continue a love affair with a man like himself: married, with children, a lawn to mow and a comfortable life. And until a few weeks ago, Dr. T. said, “this was working great in terms of getting our needs met and not disrupting our families.’’

Dr. T.’s wife had agreed she could live with his sexual orientation provided he didn’t act on it. So he lied and said his homosexual relationship did not include sex. But she wasn’t fooled and forced him to move into an in-law apartment in the family home, a way station to a more formal separation.

This development has left him stunned, one moment sympathetic to his wife’s position and the next disbelieving that they can’t work it out. “I love her, but she wants me to be in love with her,” Dr. T. said. “She wants to be my one and only. Everything we have will be at risk if, God forbid, we divorce.’’

Man, I'll tell you, I'm glad these guys aren't asking me for advice. This is a big mess.

Skipping down a little bit ...
...Gary J. Gates, a demographer at the Williams Institute, a research group that studies gay issues at U.C.L.A., blended data for The New York Times from the 2000 Census and a 2002 federal survey of family configurations, and found that the percentage of gay men who had ever been married could be as high as 38 percent — or as low as 9 percent — depending on whether respondents were asked their sexual orientation, whom they had sex with or whom they found attractive.

Of the 27 million American men currently married, Mr. Gates found, 1.6 percent, or 436,000, identify themselves as gay or bisexual. Of the 75 million men who have ever been married, 1.8 percent, or 1.3 million, identify themselves that way. But, in both cases, when the men are asked about behavior if they have ever had sex with men, not what they consider their sexual orientation, the number of men who have ever been married doubles.

Yes, that definition problem again. There are some pretty funny jokes about this, which I will not repeat here. Part of the concept has to do with self-identification; apparently there are a lot of guys who do stuff with other guys but don't think of themselves as being gay.
The sort of arrangement Dr. T. hoped for — a proper marriage and one or more relationships with men on the side — is not unheard of. Cole Porter pulled it off and so did James McGreevey, New Jersey’s former governor, who left office, and his wife, in 2004. Mr. McGreevey, 48, has spent the last year writing a memoir, “The Confession,’’ to be released on Sept. 19, and recently, with his new partner, Mark O’Donnell, 42, moved into a Georgian mansion in Plainfield, N.J.

THE specter of AIDS has led to a formal and presumably safe way for gay married men to have it all, known as a Closed-Loop Relationship. Instead of risky promiscuous sex, a married man has two “monogamous’’ relationships, one with his wife and one with another man, usually married. Done according to the rules, enumerated on Web sites and online support groups, all four parties agree to this setup.

Yikes. Can you imagine keeping all that straight?

Look, I don't think I'm too out-of-line here if I suggest that this would all work out better if gay guys just married other gay guys in the first place.
Closed-Loop Relationships are anathema to Bonnie Kaye, the former wife of a gay man, who runs the Web site and conducts “How to Come Out to Your Wife’’ workshops. “If they’re too selfish to leave, I won’t work with them,’’ Ms. Kaye said. “If they love their wives, they need to give them their lives back.’’

Deception remains common. An unscientific survey of visitors to found that more than half of the married gay respondents said their wives did not know of their sexual inclinations. Of those, a slim majority were considering whether to come clean but a third said “never.’’

There's quite a bit more to this story, mostly telling about some guys who have dealt with this and what happened to them.

It looks to me like the whole problem is caused by the perpetuation of some beliefs that are just wrong. Look, they can say "there's no gay gene" until they're blue in the face, but the fact is, guys often report that they know they're gay before they hit their teens. You can pretend, you can deny it, you can marry a woman and have kids and the whole thing, but when it comes down to it your life is going to be missing something important.

This is just another reason to teach students the facts in the first place.


Anonymous Anonymous said...

was there a point in there? or are you just rambling

August 03, 2006 3:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“ It looks to me like the whole problem is caused by the perpetuation of some beliefs that are just wrong. Look, they can say "there's no gay gene" until they're blue in the face, but the fact is”

Do you have some proof some cited papers other than antidotal or is it just you believe them and that’s it never a cured to you that they may be lying thought never crossed your head. Look up self delusional in the dictionary and learn the meaning of the word.

August 03, 2006 3:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A person knowing that they're gay before they hit their teens doesn't imply the existence of a gay gene, and I'm sure Jim knew that.

August 03, 2006 6:35 PM  
Blogger JimK said...

It seems that some people think there are two kinds of human traits: learned ones, and genetic ones. It no more likely that there is a "gay gene" than a "sense of humor gene," a "left-handed gene," a "likes to read gene," or anything else. These are very complex phenomena, and to the extent that there is a genetic component it will be complicated, and it will almost certainly require complicated interactions with the environment, including the environment in the womb, hormones and the timing of their presence, etc.

It is not necessary to identify the DNA sequence that causes homosexuality, in order to say it's not a choice.


August 03, 2006 6:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think a more important question is whether or not being attracted to a very small minority of men makes you gay.

Honestly, I don't think the word gay itself works, because it creates this gay/straight dichotomy that just doesn't make sense once you look past the social roles it creates.

August 04, 2006 2:40 AM  
Blogger JimK said...

Theresa, you quoted this sentence: And if gays can't change, why do liberals think child-molesters can ?

This should go down in the philosophy books alongside "All men are mortal, Socrates is a man, therefore Socrates is mortal," as a classic syllogism that captures the logic of the Bush Right. It is so ripe with fake assumptions and misdirections, I'll bet Ann Coulter couldn't sleep after she came up with this masterpiece.

The concept of a "liberal" as she uses it is a total fiction, it's a made-up caricature that she can pose her wonderful ideas against. There are people who care about the poor, and about fair treatment for all, who oppose imperialism and racism, and they're not so entirely different from the conservatives whose are more tolerant of inequities. It's a continuum. And it is one that makes our political system work, when it works. People with a range of opinions can come to a more robust conclusion that a group thinking entirely "in the box."

But stop and look at what you have written here. Has anyone said that child-molesters can change? Ever? It would be so handy if there was actually a group called "liberals" who believed these awful things, but there isn't.


August 04, 2006 7:47 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dana Beyer, M.D. said...
The ignorance of biology and science in general by the entire array of Anons here continues to be awe-inspiring.

Dana can't you do better there is no gay gene. the studies you site are full of flaws. no one reads them any more. prosudo sciance.

August 04, 2006 12:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's a continuum star trak insted of sciance what is you degree in pop culture.

August 04, 2006 12:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

jimk thinks gays don't molest children give me a break. what studie did that come from?

August 04, 2006 12:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Some gay men probably do molest children, and no one can deny that.

No single gene can explain something as complex as homosexuality, and every attempt at attributing it purely to being learned behaviour has failed in its application to every homosexual.

August 04, 2006 2:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"If the man is over 21, and the kid (male or female) is under 10, and the charge is rape (and there is DNA evidence) - mandatory death penalty."

That'd mean a whole lot of dead priests, huh Theresa?

August 04, 2006 6:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

""""Anonymous said...
Some gay men probably do molest children, and no one can deny that.

No single gene can explain something as complex as homosexuality, and every attempt at attributing it purely to being learned behaviour has failed in its application to every homosexual."""
who told you this crap? cites please.

August 04, 2006 7:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"'''Anonymous said...
"If the man is over 21, and the kid (male or female) is under 10, and the charge is rape (and there is DNA evidence) - mandatory death penalty."

That'd mean a whole lot of dead priests, huh Theresa? """

hole lot of dead gay priests and gays in general.

can not say 50% but it might be close.

August 04, 2006 7:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

did not have to read a sciantific paper to know that.

August 04, 2006 7:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

NARTH cites Paul Cameron's research findings:

Who is Paul Cameron?

How rigorous is his research?

Is Cameron's Family Research Institute a hate group?

August 07, 2006 8:43 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Child Abuse Negl. 1992 Nov-Dec;16(6):855-64. Related Articles, Links

Self-reported childhood and adolescent sexual abuse among adult homosexual bisexual men.

Doll LS, Joy D, Bartholow BN, Harrison JS, Bolan G, Douglas JM, Saltzman LE, Moss PM, Delgado W.

Division of HIV/AIDS, Centers for Disease Control, Atlanta, GA.

From May 1989 through April 1990, 1,001 adult homosexual and bisexual men attending sexually transmitted disease clinics were interviewed regarding potentially abusive sexual contacts during childhood and adolescence. Thirty-seven percent of participants reported they had been encouraged or forced to have sexual contact before age 19 with an older or more powerful partner; 94% occurred with men. Median age of the participant at first contact was 10; median age difference between partners was 11 years. Fifty-one percent involved use of force; 33% involved anal sex. Black and Hispanic men were more likely than white men to report such sexual contact. Using developmentally-based criteria to define sexual abuse, 93% of participants reporting sexual contact with an older or more powerful partner were classified as sexually abused. Our data suggest the risk of sexual abuse may be high among some male youth and increased attention should be devoted to prevention as well as early identification and treatment.

August 07, 2006 6:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Archives of Sexual Behavior, some 86 percent of pedophiles described themselves as homosexual or bisexual

August 07, 2006 6:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Reports of childhood sexual abuse by adolescents and young adults: stability over time

Journal of Sex Research, Nov, 2002
by Matthew C. Aalsma, Gregory D. Zimet, J. Dennis Fortenberry, Margaret Blythe, Donald P. Orr

Surveys of adolescent behavior often rely upon single-item, self-report measures. When this method is used, it is quite possible to misclassify experiences, particularly when assessing sensitive subjects such as adolescent sexual experiences (Newcomer & Udry, 1988). Given this reality, researchers have attempted to assess the reliability of certain behaviors in adolescent sexuality research, such as timing of initial sexual experiences and lifetime sexual intercourse (Alexander, Somerfield, Ensminger, Johnson, & Kim, 1993; Capaldi, 1996). The consistency of adolescent self-report of initial sexual experience timing, for example, appears poor (Alexander et al., 1993; Capaldi, 1996). In light of this fact, it seems possible that self-report of other sensitive experiences, such as childhood sexual abuse (CSA), may also be inconsistently reported in adolescent populations.

August 07, 2006 6:56 PM  
Blogger JimK said...

Our illiterate Anon just posted some cut-and-paste from NARTH and other sites, purporting to be academic studies proving that gay people are creepy. Even though I hate spending my time doing this, I looked these things up so we can see what's going on here.

The first paper he mentioned, "Self-reported childhood and adolescent sexual abuse among adult homosexual bisexual men," has every kind of methodological problem you can imagine. The sample -- gay and bisexual men who showed up at a VD clinic --does not meet the criteria for a survey sample, nor does it function as a comparison group in the experimental sense. This research was done in 1989-90, and would not meet current publication criteria, unless there was something really impressive in the body of the paper, beyond what is in the abstract. The results as described in the abstract just don't mean anything.

Anon's second one-sentence-out-of-context-without-attribution was taken from a "study" by a Steve Baldwin, titled "Child Molestation and the Homosexual Movement," in the Regent University Law Review. It can be seen HERE. In a footnote on the first page of this document, we learn who Steve Baldwin is: The Honorable Steve Baldwin is a long time author, researcher, and speaker on homosexual issues. Elected to the California State Assembly in 1994, Baldwin chaired the Assembly Education Committee where he fought the homosexual community’s efforts to insert pro-gay curriculum into California’s public schools. In other words, he is a politician with an opinion, not an academic expert.

This article is a real piece of work. The paper, which is supposedly being published in an academic journal, complains about the liberal media and GLAAD's handouts, quotes Paul Cameron as if he were a real researcher, and, like Illiterate-Anon, he loves to talk about NAMBLA. I would like to hear how legal scholars regard the Regent University Law Reivew.

The sentence quoted by Anon from Baldwin's document cites a paper by W.D. Erickson et al., titled "Behavior Patterns of Child Molesters," from the 1988 Archives of Sexual Behavior, but the Internet doesn't seem to have any actual quotes from it. This paper is referenced many times on sites by the Family Research Council and others, but none seem to go beyond the self-report figure cited by Anon here. There is no way to know what research was conducted, or whether this one datum is taken out of context.

Anon's third reference, the Aalsma et al paper, seems totally irrelevant to making Anon's point that gay people are stinky evil perverts. The paper appears to be a methodological study that finds a significant amount of measurement error in adolescents' self-reports of sexual behavior. Uh, yeah, I coulda told you that. I looked around to see how other people treated this paper, and that is the part that's quoted -- teenagers don't tell you very accurately about their sexual behavior

There should be a name for this misuse of peer-reviewed literature to give the appearance of erudition. We have many times seen speakers who quote from this and that source, very impressively, until you go back and see that it is either a bogus source, or it has been misconstrued by the speaker.


August 07, 2006 8:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Recidivism of Sex Offenders Released from Prison in 1994
Presents, for the first time, data on the rearrest, reconviction, and reimprisonment of 9,691 male sex offenders, including 4,295 child molesters, who were tracked for 3 years after their release from prisons in 15 States in 1994. The 9,691 are two-thirds of all the male sex offenders released from prisons in the United States in 1994. The study represents the largest followup ever conducted of convicted sex offenders following discharge from prison and provides the most comprehensive assessment of their behavior after release.

Highlights include the following:

Within 3 years following their release, 5.3% of sex offenders (men who had committed rape or sexual assault) were rearrested for another sex crime.

On average the 9,691 sex offenders served 3 1/2 years of their 8-year sentence.

Compared to non-sex offenders released from State prisons, released sex offenders were 4 times more likely to be rearrested for a sex crime.

The 9,691 released sex offenders included 4,295 men who were in prison for child molesting.

11/03 NCJ 198281

August 07, 2006 8:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

was there some kind of point in there JimK or were you just regurgitating mindlessly what you read on a glad website?
JimK said...
Our illiterate Anon just posted some cut-and-paste from NARTH and other sites, purporting to be academic studies proving that gay people are creepy.

August 08, 2006 5:30 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

illiterate jim do you know what the word means or should i exsplain it for you. I don't mind we both know i have done it in the past.

August 08, 2006 5:52 PM  
Blogger JimK said...

Wow, you're right, Anon, I don't know what "illiterate" means. Would you please exsplain it to me?


August 08, 2006 6:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

showing or marked by a lack of familiarity with language and literature
there you go puto.

August 08, 2006 7:12 PM  
Blogger JimK said...

Wow, Illiterate Anon gets one right, through the miracle of cut-n-paste.


August 08, 2006 7:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

one right we are at me 3 jimK 0 or did you forget tolerance and freedom?

August 08, 2006 7:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

why do you use so many words you don't know the meaning of? It does not make you sound any smarter.

August 08, 2006 7:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

JimK said...
Our illiterate Anon just posted some cut-and-paste from NARTH and other sites, purporting to be academic studies proving that gay people are creepy
You have not convinced me that these are not ligitimat papers is there anything in then you find inacurate?

August 10, 2006 5:50 PM  
Blogger JimK said...

Show me some peer reviewed research. And Psych Reports is not peer-reviwed.


August 10, 2006 6:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

From: University of Pennsylvania Medical Center

Sexual Abuse Of Boys Is More Common Than Believed; Consequences Of Abuse Are Highly Negative
(Philadelphia, PA) -- Sexual abuse of boys appears to be underrecognized, underreported, and undertreated, according to a new study by researchers at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine. Such wholesale societal shunning of the magnitude of the problem may contribute, in part, to the development of long-term psychosocial problems in the adult male victims of childhood sexual abuse, conclude the researchers. Some of those psychosocial effects include mild to severe psychiatric disorders, substance abuse involving multiple drugs, and serious sexual problems -- including intimacy and sexual-identity problems, the early adoption of high-risk behaviors, and the circular transformation of the child victim into an adult perpetrator. The study appears in the December 2 edition of the Journal of the American Medical Association.

"Based on our results, we urge all medical professionals -- but especially mental-health experts -- to ask specifically of new male patients about any history of childhood sexual abuse," says William C. Holmes, MD, MSCE, lead author of the study and Assistant Professor of Internal Medicine at Penn. "Then, comcommitant with patient disclosure, the provider should help that patient receive some form of counseling so that he may begin to deal effectively with negative emotions and behaviors linked to the previous abuse."

For their study, the researchers sought to clarify the definition of sexual abuse of boys, and also to help determine the prevalence of such abuse in the nation. To that end, they reviewed and compared 166 previously-published studies of the topic. One of the most glaring deficiencies noted among the studies was the wide variance that existed for the definition of sexual abuse: indeed, while some studies used objective questions to determine abuse, others used subjective questions, and still others used no questions at all (relying, instead, on unstated methods of documentation). "The breadth of any given problem cannot be accurately measured until there is agreement on the definition of the problem," explains Holmes, who also serves as Senior Scholar in Penn's Department of Biostatistics & Epidemiology. "A prerequisite to improving research in this field is clarification and standardization of how investigators ask subjects about and define male sexual abuse. Objective questioning should be the norm, with terms for sexual organs clearly used (e.g.,penis) and acts described in simple, graphic language."

Notwithstanding the problem of definition, the researchers found 8-16% of the general male population had a history of sexual abuse, and that boys at highest risk for sexual abuse were younger than 13 years, nonwhite, of low socioeconomic status, and not living with their fathers. Perpetrators tended to be known, but unrelated, males. Abuse frequently occurred outside the home, involved penetration, and occured more than once.

Equally disturbing are the far-reaching consequences to the long-lasting emotional health of sexually-abused adolescent boys. In terms of psychiatric problems, there are higher rates of borderline personality disorder, depression, and suicide attempts in men who have been victims of sexual abuse versus those who have not. Drug use begins earlier for male victims of sexual abuse, and typically involves multiple substances. "Perhaps, for these men, substance abuse is a way of self-medicating; a way to blunt that side of reality," suggests Holmes.

Long-lasting sexual problems are in evidence, as well, for victims. One of the most concerning is that the sexual abuse of boys may contribute to the evolution of young victim to adult perpetrator. "I think a lot of people would find that connection quite damning, but I look at it more sympathetically," says Holmes. "Our culture does not encourage boys to speak about abuse, so they hold it inside themselves. Then, later on, what more powerful way for these men to rid themselves of 'victimhood' than by becoming perpetrators?"

Given that boyhood sexual abuse manifests itself in so many negative outcomes, the researchers call for the development of interventions that are focused and effective. "Sexual abuse of boys is happening, and we need to address it more aggressively as a society," emphasizes Holmes.

"We must become as vigilant with our boys as we are with our girls," he adds. "Parents must be equally concerned about where their sons are, who they're with, and ask them how they are. They must also create an environment that allows their sons to feel safe talking about any sexual abuse or potential abuse they may have suffered."

August 10, 2006 8:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

bit me

August 10, 2006 8:53 PM  
Blogger JimK said...



August 10, 2006 9:11 PM  

Post a Comment

<< Home