Friday, February 02, 2007

Terrible News: Missing Girls Apparently Found, Dead

The bodies of two Montgomery County teenage girls who had disapppeared, as we reported HERE, have apparently been found.
Two white female bodies have been discovered inside the vehicle in which two teenage girls from Montgomery County were riding when they disappeared two weeks ago.

The sheriff in Loudoun County, Va., tipped Montgomery County police about the discovery of the car just after 2 p.m. Friday.

News4's Keith Garvin reported that the car was found in a wooded area in western Loudoun County near the West Virginia border. Police are investigating, and the girls' parents have been notified. Bodies Found In Missing Teens' Car

I was talking to a father in England last year who noted that the English language has words like "widow," for a wife whose husband has died, and "orphan," for a child whose parents have died, but no word for a parent whose child has died. He is a scientist, and has a theory about it: he said, there is no word for that because it's too terrible to think about.

Our hearts go out to the families of these girls.

27 Comments:

Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

This is another terrible tragedy.

February 03, 2007 7:40 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I just learned that according to the American Psychological Association, suicide is the number one cause of death for gay teens.

We don't know, and may never know what was really going on in those girls' lives. All we know is that two beautiful young people, are no longer here. And we know that every child is precious, and deserves total love and acceptance.

I hope that as moral human beings, we can at least agree on that.

February 03, 2007 11:29 AM  
Anonymous Terrance said...

I hope that as moral human beings, we can at least agree on that.

Unfortunately, not everyone can agree on that, like the mom I posted about on my blog this week.

I don't know what went on his these girl's lives, but suicide and homelessness are huge problems among gay youth. And it almost always stems from a lack of acceptance and understanding at home. Sometimes that includes violence and abuse, or even being kicked out of the house by parents.

Being a teenager is hard enough without having to deal with being rejected by your own family. At that age, you can have a kind of tunnel vision, and think that things will always be as bad as they are right then.

That is, if there's nobody around to tell you any different; to tell you that you're OK, that there's life, love, and acceptance beyond your back yard. And that you'll find it.

And that's exactly what some people don't want gay & lesbian youth to hear.

February 03, 2007 12:29 PM  
Blogger Orin Ryssman said...

Jim writes,

He is a scientist, and has a theory about it: he said, there is no word for that because it's too terrible to think about.

Profound observation, and I suspect as close to the truth of this matter.

May these girls find the peace that eluded them in this life, and may the parents find the strength to continue to live.

Tragic...

February 03, 2007 3:31 PM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

It breaks my heart to hear stories like this. And it makes me so angry at all the anti-gay bigots who thoughlessly and heartlessly keep pushing the idea that its wrong to be gay. All you anonymice, its people like you that are responsible for tragedies like this, but you don't care, do you? You don't have any empathy for others, all that concerns you is your incredibly selfish desire to push gays out of your sight.

February 03, 2007 3:46 PM  
Anonymous Aunt Bea said...

Perhaps if these girls believed it was possible for them to pursue their unalienable right to happiness, this tragedy might have been avoided.

February 04, 2007 8:37 AM  
Blogger Orin Ryssman said...

Anonymous writes,

I just learned that according to the American Psychological Association, suicide is the number one cause of death for gay teens.

How about for teens in general without any risk factors added to the mix? I suspect that suicide and auto accidents are the two top categories.

We don't know, and may never know what was really going on in those girls' lives. All we know is that two beautiful young people, are no longer here. And we know that every child is precious, and deserves total love and acceptance.

So very true.

Terrence writes,

Being a teenager is hard enough without having to deal with being rejected by your own family. At that age, you can have a kind of tunnel vision, and think that things will always be as bad as they are right then.

And even when a parent tells their child that they love them, and assures and reassures them of that love, what a loving parent says and what a troubled teen mind hears can be two entirely different things. Throw into the mix parents that cannot unconditionally love their children and the situation can become lethal.

Randi writes,

You don't have any empathy for others, all that concerns you is your incredibly selfish desire to push gays out of your sight.

I can only speak for myself, but I do not think, speak or act like this...in fact in those instances where I have had the opportunity to speak up for the respect and dignity of gays/lesbians in a religious setting (especially) I have. And since I come from the Roman Catholic background I can state with a good degree of confidence that it is a grave and mortal sin for any Catholic parent to withhold their love from a lesbian daughter or gay son.

Aunt Bea writes,

Perhaps if these girls believed it was possible for them to pursue their unalienable right to happiness, this tragedy might have been avoided.

In light of the evidence at present this POV may be pushing the speculation a little past the point of reasonableness. What teens imagine in their minds often bears no similarity to reality. How do any of us know what the parents said over the dinner table to their daughters? It is possible that one or both parents were ready to accept, love and embrace their daughters upon being told of their sexual orientation. Has anyone considered that??? All either of these girls needed to do was approach their parents.

One thing I have learned so far is that there is so much of a teenager's life they intentionally hide from their parents. Sure, I get angry at times with my teenagers, but I also strive to move past it quickly, say I am sorry and tell them I love them.

A parent never knows...

February 04, 2007 6:31 PM  
Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

We don't know much of anything, actually. One of the girls belonged to a very liberal synagogue. We know one Rachel wrote about not being parted from her lover, so it's natural to infer a gay relationship. But we know nothing else.

That's the point. The clue is there, and there has been no follow-up. Nothing. FOX News will follow the story of one missing blonde girl for months to years, and here we have a story that is highly relevant to other battles in this county, and no one in the media picks up on it.

Maybe it was nothing. It would be helpful if someone pursued the story.

I do want to add that this thread is the most reasonable, decent and empathetic one on this blog in a very long time.

February 04, 2007 9:40 PM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

Aunt bea said "Perhaps if these girls believed it was possible for them to pursue their unalienable right to happiness, this tragedy might have been avoided."

Orin said "In light of the evidence at present this POV may be pushing the speculation a little past the point of reasonableness."

Come off it Orin, given what we know this is a strong, strong possibility. You contribute to this environment where LGBTs are second class citizens and then you want to deny the likelihood of the consequences of that. That makes me furious.

Orin said "What teens imagine in their minds often bears no similarity to reality.".

Wake up Orin, the most common slur in school is to call someone gay. The reality is that there's a lot of hatred and oppression of gays and no doubt these girls felt that.
How do you think it makes a young LGBT feel to have society screaming about how we are not good enough to be allowed to marry the one we love? What kind of dream world do you live in where you think that has no effect on a young person's belief in their ability to achieve happiness?

Orin said "How do any of us know what the parents said over the dinner table to their daughters? It is possible that one or both parents were ready to accept, love and embrace their daughters upon being told of their sexual orientation. Has anyone considered that???All either of these girls needed to do was approach their parents.".

All they needed to do was approach their parents?! That's incredibly naive Orin! Many gay kids are thrown out of their homes or even violently attacked after coming out to their parents. The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and the National Coalition for the Homeless estimate gay, lesbian and transgender youth make up at least 20 percent - possibly as much as 40 percent - of the total number of homeless and runaway youth. I recently read (I don't have a link) that up to 1/4 of gay children are thrown out of their homes after coming out to their parents. And even if their parents were accepting there's still the huge numbers of anti-gay people in society to reject and harrass them.

How dare you try to say it isn't reasonable to believe such tragedies might be avoided if these girls believed it was possible for them to pursue their unalienable right to happiness?! The number one cause of death amongst gay youth is suicide and you're trying to say it isn't reasonable to believe this hateful society might have something to do with it?! Please! Take responsibility for the consequences of second class citizenship you espouse!

February 04, 2007 9:46 PM  
Blogger Orin said...

Randi,

One simple question: are you a parent with teenage daughters?

Orin

February 05, 2007 12:14 PM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

Orin, are you an LGBT who's experienced the hate of society and rejection of parents and family first hand?

February 05, 2007 1:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Based on the press coverage in the Washington Post (and assuming that the quotations are accurate), it sounds like Rachel Smith's parents, at the very least, suspected that the two girls were in a romantic relationship and didn't seem to have an issue with that at all. I only mention that because it breaks your heart to think that the girls' parents might stumble on this blog and feel like they are blamed for this terrible tragedy, ESPECIALLY if they otherwise tried to be loving and supportive.

I worked as a prosecutor in Juvenile Court for three years and I came out of it with one profound lesson: the single most important thing we can do to prevent self-destructive behavior in teenagers is to somehow, someway, persuade them that they really do have a future ahead of them to be invested in; that just because the world is miserable and hopeless today, it won't necessarily be so ten or even five years from now. But it's hard to believe that if you've never seen it. And it doesn't matter if the child is gay, or poor, or abused, or even just depressed: the hardest thing in the world is to persuade a child to have faith in something they've never seen before and have no reason to think exists in real life.

Mr. and Mrs. Smith, Crites family...you have my deepest condolences. Words just fail me to try and say how sorry I am for your loss.

February 05, 2007 4:23 PM  
Anonymous terrance said...

As I said when I posted on my blog, it's true that we don't know what exactly when on in these girls' lives. We also don't know the families of either girl. They seemed genuinely concerned to find their daughters, and grieved to hasve lost them, and there's no reason to think otherwise. I couldn't help, when I read the story, thinking about what I'd recently read about suicide and homelessness among LGBT youth. But I don't think anyone blames the parents. As a parent myself, my heart goes out to them.

We do know that one of them wrote about wanting "stay with my true love, buried next to her." That implies at least a romantic same-sex relationship. Whether the parents opposed that relationship or not, we don't know. Whether they even knew of it is something we don't know.

It's possible that their daughters may have kept it a secret. If so, it's not a stretch to consider that keeping that secret, and keeping silent, might lead to or increase the liklihood of depression. At the same time, it's possible they looked around them and felt the odds were overwhelmingly against their relationship. It's also possible that they were distraught over being separated somehow, and this was the only course they could think of.

Like I said before, at that age it's easy to have tunnel vision, and think that things will always be as bad as they are, if there's no one to tell you different.

What's intersting to me is the reaction to suggesting a relationship between the two girls. If a heterosexual teenage couple had carried out a suicide pact, no one would think twice about mentioning their relationship. (Of course, a heterosexual couple probably wouldn't have to keep their relationship a secret, unless their parents objected.) But for some reason, even if it seems obvious from the little we do know, we have to stop short of suggesting a relationship between the girls.

It's almost as if mentioning the possibility of a relationship is "speaking ill of the dead." Because there would be something wrong with them having a romantic relationship.

February 05, 2007 5:30 PM  
Anonymous Doonesburied said...

That's an interesting point, Terrance. I must admit that this point has made me angry as well: the apparent reluctance to explicitly state even the _possibility_ that these two young ladies may have been in love with one another. For heaven's sake, it isn't as if we haven't seen these types of situations among hetero teens as well, a million times before. And it just seems so wrong and sad to demean their romantic relationship, if that is indeed what it was, by referring to it as an "intense friendship" -- a phrase I've seen used in some of the media coverage of this case. Especially when you consider the role that prejudice against LGBT teens may have played in making the girls feel even more isolated and hopeless in the first place.

P.S. I am the same poster who commented just above you. I should have identified myself, I just clicked the wrong option under "Choose an identity". Sorry for any confusion.

February 05, 2007 6:59 PM  
Blogger Orin Ryssman said...

Randi writes,

Orin, are you an LGBT who's experienced the hate of society and rejection of parents and family first hand?

No, I have not.

Ok, I answered your question...how about answering mine?

You see, the reason I ask is because I am dealing with this issue in a rather direct, first-hand way that has helped me to understand this issue just a little better. In addition, I once had a friend whose child, this persons only child, committed suicide. Though I did not ever meet in person this friend or their child I have come to the conclusion that this child was homosexual. This friend's life was shattered, never to be the same.

And while I now have responsibilities that will not allow me to do more than I do, I would welcome the possibility of helping gay youth in the future. Just suppose I were to take a gay youth in that had been kicked out of their own home, and gave that youth a clean bed, good food and reflected God's love to them.

Do you think it would matter to that youth that I do not support same-sex marriage? That is to say, what would matter most? What I do, or what I believe?

Anonymous writes,

And it doesn't matter if the child is gay, or poor, or abused, or even just depressed: the hardest thing in the world is to persuade a child to have faith in something they've never seen before and have no reason to think exists in real life.

Words of wisdom...thank you.

February 06, 2007 11:15 AM  
Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

Orin, I, for one, do believe you'd do the right thing, and that it would be appreciated.

I also believe your stance on marriage would be hurtful to that child. Would that end your relationship? I doubt it. I would hope she would use your feelings for one another to convince you of her full worth as a human being, one no less than yours.

You shouldn't knock Randi, just because she hasn't had children. My elder son turns 22 today, and I know I see things differently from the perspective of his birth 22 years ago, and his gestation before that as well (given my exposure to DES in utero). To this day I have had my concerns that that which has damaged me might damage him and his brother as well (it been reported to have third generation effects, some of which have been confirmed). But we all have much to contribute to this discussion, other than Inane-Anon.

I also doubt any of the girls' parents reading this blog would in any way imagine that we hold them responsible for their children's deaths. The larger point is that if your society, and particularly your school when it is the focus of your life as an adolescent, acts to make you feel invisible and dirty, you are more likely to become depressed and lose hope.

February 06, 2007 11:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

sad

February 06, 2007 2:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

sad

February 06, 2007 2:24 PM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

Orin, I do not have children. If you were to take in a homeless gay child they would be happy about that but hurt by your lack of support for equal marriage, by your seeing them as unworthy and second class. They would be conflicted about how to feel about you, seeing you as an incomprehensible mix of good and bad. Dana said it extremely well.

My point is that being a parent doesn't change the fact that you're not in a position to know what its like to be despised for your sexuality, I am. You trivilize the societal antagonism towards gays when you say "All either of these girls needed to do was approach their parents". You grossly overestimate the degree to which parents can ameliorate the hatred of others. You obviously don't understand because you don't have the experience and the desire to put yourself in in our shoes.

Aunt bea said "Perhaps if these girls believed it was possible for them to pursue their unalienable right to happiness, this tragedy might have been avoided" and for you to say that's past the point of reasonable speculation is ignorant at best and anti-gay politics at worst. Don't try to hide from the fact that discrimination against gays can hurt to the point of suicide.

February 06, 2007 6:22 PM  
Blogger Orin said...

Randi writes,

Orin, I do not have children. If you were to take in a homeless gay child they would be happy about that but hurt by your lack of support for equal marriage, by your seeing them as unworthy and second class.

I guess I show my jewish side of my personality because here what matters is what I do more than what I believe. Let me give you an example...in the last election we had two items on the Colorado State ballot; the first defined marriage as the union of a man and a woman (Prop. 43), while the second, Referendum I would have created domestic partnerships. Though nobody asked me to post a yard sign in support of Prop. 43, I did know how I could get one if I wanted. I did not. Why? I guess one way to view this would be to say that I was acting cowardly, or that I lacked the courage of my convictions. The reason I did not post such a sign in my yard is because one, I did not think it would change ANYONE's mind; two, and most importantly, I know of a gay couple that are neighbors (though there are several houses that separate us) and they walk their two dogs right past my house. They are good neighbors, and on occasion they stop and we exchange polite conversation. I have no desire to do anything that would antagonize them like posting a yard sign would.

Now, I know, since I voted in favor of Prop. 43 that some here would consider me a hypocrite and a phony. I regret that may be the impression left with some. When I vote though I vote according to my conscience, and I could not vote against something that would protect an important social institution. Others think differently, and I respect that fact.

However, in this last election I only had one sign in my yard and that was in support of increasing my property taxes to create the Fort Collins Regional Library District. I did this as a show of civic pride and support, and because I thought it might influence some that were wavering to throw their support behind this measure. It passed, and though my property taxes went up $62.11, it makes me proud and fortunate to pay this increase.

They would be conflicted about how to feel about you, seeing you as an incomprehensible mix of good and bad. Dana said it extremely well.

(smile) Yes, they would...and I would hope that another lesson learned is that reasonable people CAN and WILL disagree about these sorts of issues (this wisdom I learned from a conservative professor in college; I took three of my five/six political philosophy classes from this professor).

My point is that being a parent doesn't change the fact that you're not in a position to know what its like to be despised for your sexuality, I am.

On this point you are 100% correct...

You trivialize the societal antagonism towards gays when you say "All either of these girls needed to do was approach their parents".

Perhaps...though I think you do not give society enough credit for the positive change that has taken place already.

You grossly overestimate the degree to which parents can ameliorate the hatred of others.

Again, perhaps...I speak from the perspective of one who was (at times) bullied in school because I was different. I knew that as tough as it was sometimes I could go home to a mother (first) and a father (second) that would love me unconditionally. It saddens and grieves me that ANY parent would reject their child because of sexual orientation, though I recognize parents withhold love and even reject their own children for any number of reasons other than sexual orientation.

You obviously don't understand because you don't have the experience and the desire to put yourself in in our shoes.

I am sorry you feel that way...I will simply let my closest friend, a friend for over 20 years, a gay man, be the ultimate judge.

Aunt bea said "Perhaps if these girls believed it was possible for them to pursue their unalienable right to happiness, this tragedy might have been avoided" and for you to say that's past the point of reasonable speculation is ignorant at best and anti-gay politics at worst. Don't try to hide from the fact that discrimination against gays can hurt to the point of suicide.

Good grief...give the homosexual as victim schtick a rest for a moment at least.

Newsflash: people commit suicide for a whole host of reasons...please, try not to claim some sort of moral monopoly by virtue of differing sexual orientation. Can we do more, especially on behalf of gay youth to reach them and help them? You bet we can, and in that I think we could all find ourselves in agreement.

February 07, 2007 4:00 AM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

Orin said "Though nobody asked me to post a yard sign in support of Prop. 43, I did know how I could get one if I wanted. I did not... I have no desire to do anything that would antagonize [my gay neighbours] like posting a yard sign would."

You want a medal for that ?! You said you didn't think it would make a difference so obviously in your mind you weren't making any kind of sacrifice for your neighbours. You voted against their equality and you think not posting a sign excuses you from that?! Give me a break!


In response to orin's hypothetical taking in of a homeless gay child and that child seeing him as an inexplicable mix of good and bad for opposing their equality he said "smile) Yes, they would...and I would hope that another lesson learned is that reasonable people CAN and WILL disagree about these sorts of issues".

Well, you'd be hoping in vain. No gay child is going to see your desire to keep them as second class citizens as reasonable.

Orin said "I think you do not give society enough credit for the positive change that has taken place already.".

Yes, that's certainly the case in Canada. In the States the anti-gays are highly vocal and insistent in repressing gays. In most of your states a gay can be fired from his job or evicted from his home merely for being gay. There hasn't been that much in the way of positive change in your country. When no gay can be fired from his job or evicted from his house merely for being gay then you can pat yourself on the back.

I said "You obviously don't understand because you don't have the experience and the desire to put yourself in in our shoes."

Orin said "I am sorry you feel that way...I will simply let my closest friend, a friend for over 20 years, a gay man, be the ultimate judge.". Its hilarious how those who oppose gay equality claim to have gay friends. I seriously doubt your "closest friend" would characterize your relationship in the same way. Prove it to me, have him send me an email and let's see if he calls you his closest friend, or even a friend. I say he doesn't.

randi.schimnosky@sasktel.net

Aunt bea said "Perhaps if these girls believed it was possible for them to pursue their unalienable right to happiness, this tragedy might have been avoided" and for you to say that's past the point of reasonable speculation is ignorant at best and anti-gay politics at worst. Don't try to hide from the fact that discrimination against gays can hurt to the point of suicide.

Orin responds "Good grief...give the homosexual as victim schtick a rest for a moment at least.".

Spoken like the heartless failure to take responsibility that you are. How about you stop this "it can't be straights' fault" schtick a rest. And I told you I find the phrase "homosexual" offensive, but of course you're too self-centred to worry about anything other than deflecting responsibility for the consequences of anti-gay hate away from its source. Anyone who really has gays for friends would know better than to use a phrase with all the negative connotations of "homosexuals" when speaking to LGBTs.

Orin said "Newsflash: people commit suicide for a whole host of reasons...please, try not to claim some sort of moral monopoly by virtue of differing sexual orientation.".

Orin, for you to say its unreasonable to speculate that anti-gay hatred is one of those reasons is plain ignorant at best and anti-gay politics at worst. Gay children are much more likely to commit suicide than straight children - there's only one possible reason for that - anti-gay hatred. Your trivializing and denying that is despicable.

February 07, 2007 5:39 PM  
Blogger Orin Ryssman said...

Randi writes,

Orin said "I am sorry you feel that way...I will simply let my closest friend, a friend for over 20 years, a gay man, be the ultimate judge.". Its hilarious how those who oppose gay equality claim to have gay friends. I seriously doubt your "closest friend" would characterize your relationship in the same way. Prove it to me, have him send me an email and let's see if he calls you his closest friend, or even a friend. I say he doesn't.

randi.schimnosky@sasktel.net

Oh, Randi, I will pass this along to him, though I doubt for reasons of privacy that he will reply. Moreover, I don't think that at this point in his life he feels a need to defend a friendship to a curious, yet complete stranger. Good grief, he has to defend me to his gay friends that question why he continues to be my friend (e tells me about it from time to time)...why would he defend our friendship to satisfy your curiousity?

One other fact, before I head off to bed...I have never been asked to defend my friendship to him by anyone else...ever. I am honored to be his friend.

February 08, 2007 10:47 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Orin admitted, "he has to defend me to his gay friends that question why he continues to be my friend"

Enough said.

February 08, 2007 2:16 PM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

Orin, if you were honoured to be his friend you wouldn't be pushing to keep him as a second class citizien by opposing his right to marry and saying he isn't fit to marry. You wouldn't be blindly dismissing gays as promiscuous, you are not his friend.

February 08, 2007 8:41 PM  
Blogger Orin said...

Ok, Randi, here you have it. I doubt it will change your POV, but in that remote chance...well, here it is.

Oh, and I did not change so much as a comma or a period.

**********************************

Hi Orin Lee:

You have my permission to edit any or all of my comments.

Love, James

***************************************

My friendship with Orin, on the surface, appears to be an anomaly, a contradiction, an enigma. He is straight and quite conservative. I am gay and quite liberal. We have come to different conclusions regarding sex, religion, and politics. In spite of these differences, we’ve been like brothers to each other for nearly a quarter of a century.

Orin does not hate homosexuals, nor is he homophobic. If either of those statements were not true, our friendship would not have survived. His circle of friends include a very diverse group of people, including gays and lesbians. We are not his token friends because we are gay or lesbian, it just happens to be part of who we are.

Orin’s opposition to same sex marriage has nothing to do with hate or fear. It has everything to do with his definition of marriage and family. He believes that the ideal family situation is a husband and wife with biological children. Even if the children are not biologically related, they still have a mother and a father. By his definition, marriage is solely intended to support the union of a husband and wife, and children if there are any.

Well, what about same sex couples? He believes that marriage falls outside of that definition, but same sex couples should still be given the same legal rights and responsibilities of marriage. The property rights, hospital rights, inheritance rights, and child custody rights should all be guaranteed as in marriage. Call it a domestic partnership, civil union, commitment union, a contract of love. Call it anything but marriage.

In my ideal situation, I would like to see marriage rights extended to same sex couples as they currently are in Massachusetts, and a few Western European Countries. But what is important to me is not the word marriage, but the rights and privileges that marriage provide. If the rights and privileges can be guaranteed, then I will compromise and not use the word marriage for same sex couples.

Orin and I have our differences with the environment, the economy, embryonic stem cell research, abortion, the death penalty, the war in Iraq, and sex education in schools, to name just a few things. But our friendship is based on mutual love and respect for each other. We accept and support each other “as is.”

I am truly blessed to have Orin in my life. He helps me to see the other point of view rather than demonizing them or simply brushing them off as superfluous. He helps to take the extreme edges off of me, as I hopefully do the same for him. He provides a safe place to expose my weaknesses and flaws, to constantly examine my opinions and points of view.

One of the most important aspects of our friendship is that of continuity in our lives. From our university days, to our marriages, my divorce, my coming out, my political shift to the left and his to the right, his raising of children, career changes, geographic changes, his conversion to a different religion, my embracing all religions, and all our arguments and disagreements in between, our friendship continues to deepen.

To quote the Old Testament Book of Proverbs, Chapter 18, Verse 24: A man that hath friends must show himself friendly: and there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother. Orin is such a friend to me.

February 09, 2007 12:48 PM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

Orin, I am highly suspicious of this as it didn't come directly to me from an email address other than your own.

However, assuming it is genuine, what jumps out at me is this fellow's statements " He believes that...same sex couples should still be given the same legal rights and responsibilities of marriage....Call it a domestic partnership, civil union, commitment union, a contract of love. Call it anything but marriage.".

This contradics with what you've said here. You bragged about voting against the civil unions measure in Colorado and stated how happy you were that it didn't pass. Obviously you are saying different things to this fellow than you've been writing here. No big surprise there.

February 12, 2007 3:54 PM  
Anonymous Phentermine said...

Nice design of blog.

August 13, 2007 3:25 PM  

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