Monday, May 21, 2007

Mad MCPS Teacher Calls PFOX

In a fit or boredom I followed a link on the CRC's web site, that said "MC parents and other parents listen to this." The link goes to a web page with a big title, "Stop The Hate Now ... the hate towards the ex-gay community." It appears that this is a site is where PFOX intends to collect angry email and voicemail messages and post them, to prove that the world hates "ex-gays." They actually have two emails linked, and one phone call. The CRC linked directly to the phone call.

If you haven't been following this, let me explain. PFOX is the Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays and Gays, supposedly, though of course that would be PFOX-GAG. For some reason they leave the "And Gays" part out of their acronym. They are a tiny but noisy "organization" (it might be one person) that tries to push the idea that gay people can stop being gay. They claim there are thousands, sometimes tens of thousands, of "ex-gays" out there, but they never produce one that isn't on the payroll or somehow making a name for themselves through the ministry.

The organization is led by Regina Griggs, who has a gay son ... it's sad. She keeps saying gay people can change, but they don't.

One of the major objectives of PFOX is to get people to pity them. They incessantly claim that everyone is prejudiced against "ex-gays," though most people have never heard the term and couldn't care less. People are offended, though, that these people go around trying to get unashamed gay people to think there's something wrong with them; it just doesn't sit well, somehow. Nobody cares if somebody stops being gay, but people definitely do care when some betterthanyou group goes around telling perfectly happy people that they need to change.

PFOX has lately been sending home fliers in MCPS students' backpacks. We have heard from a number of teachers who are very unhappy with the situation.

When you click on the link, you hear PFOX's voicemail:
Hello, I'm a teacher at a Montgomery County school, and today we were forced by our administration to hand out your fliers about children who need to quit being gay. I want you to know, number one, I find this extremely offensive that any student would be forced to read material alongside their report cards and not get an affirming document from an organization like SMYAL, the Sexual Minority Youth Assistance League, that would promote, that actually did promote tolerance, awareness, and respect for individuals regardless of their orientation or their personal self and their self identity.

I think that you as an organization owe some responsibility to the county, distributing materials to impressionable young people to make sure that both sides of the story are getting out. And I think that if you actually promoted tolerance and awareness in the community of people's different sexual orientations and different sexual identities that you would have partnered with an organization that is willing to partner, like SMYAL, like ** used to be, like Different Avenues. One of the organizations that actually does support and affirm youth even when they become homeless because their parents have refused to support them because their parents quote PFOX things to them, if you could have reached out to one of those organizations and sent out a flier that actually did promote both sides of the issue, and give both sets of resources, then I would have been more willing to pass out your reprehensible materials to youth. Rather than to force them to feel like they are broken or somehow un-whole.

In the meantime, being forced to pass out these one-sided, there's-something-wrong-with-you type message is just so offensive to me and so underhanded that an organization would do that to a bunch of impressionable young people who are trying not to commit suicide over their personal identity. It saddens me, it is sneaky and underhanded that you would put your fliers out in that manner. I hope that you will seriously consider the way *** think and the way you're introducing yourself to an entire community of people who are truly in need before you do this again. I appreciate that your fliers weren't openly hostile and for that I give you credit. But I strongly recommend you to reach out to another organization if you've got some sort of in, before you wallpaper an entire county with this kind of material.

It is offensive and one-sided and totally disrespectful of the sexual identity of about ten percent of the teenagers at every high school in Montgomery County. And for you to send this message out this way and twist the school district's arm into distributing this material is so offensive when you've made no attempt to distribute other kinds of material. It is ridiculous, self-centered, and judgmental, and I hope that you will seriously consider doing this another way the next time report cards come out.

I am raising this complaint to the administration in my building and eventually to the administration of the entire school district, so they invite other organizations like SMYAL to present other sides of this issue. In the meantime, I really would hope you don't do this again. This is totally offensive. LINK HERE

Wow, I would love to hear from this teacher -- it sounds like she was doing this off the top of her head. She obviously has given this some thought, and she was very obviously extremely unhappy with the situation.

It is interesting that PFOX tries to pass this sort of thing off as "hate." What has this teacher said that is remotely hateful? She is angry, oh yeah, no doubt about that, about having to hand out immoral materials to vulnerable students.

Here you've got a teacher who has a sense of right and wrong, and has been forced by the school district to do the wrong thing. PFOX wants you to interpret her distress as hate: shame on them. They have good reasons to confuse people; if you want to see hate, look at PFOX. They are in no position to call names, especially when it's one hard-working schoolteacher, outraged at being used by the county to spread this ugliness.

How long do you think good teachers are going to allow themselves to be used this way? They're already overworked and underpaid, and now they have to pass out propaganda that undermines their most vulnerable students. How long can they be expected to keep doing this?

If the teacher who made this call happens to see this, how about sending us a note at info@teachthefacts.org ? We'd definitely like to follow your story and see what kind of progress you're making.

41 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Here you've got a teacher who has a sense of right and wrong, and has been forced by the school district to do the wrong thing."


Maybe she should quit.

May 21, 2007 4:18 PM  
Anonymous MCPS Mom said...

I hope she stays to fight for the MCPS minority kids who have suffered in silence for too long. She obviously cares a lot for her students and they are blessed to have a teacher who cares for them so much.

Maybe she'll turn out to be a great candidate for the BOE seats that will be open for election in 2008.

May 21, 2007 7:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Not me. I hope she quits and starts her own school where she can make all the rules and decide is and is not passed out and read.

It would be great.

May 21, 2007 7:19 PM  
Anonymous another product of MCPS said...

"Maybe she should quit."


Maybe you should take a lesson from her in being open to everybody. She even said she would have felt better if students were given both sides. Being extreme is rarly good.

May 21, 2007 8:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Andrea- not anon
Anon - why don't you quit? Isn't there somewhere you could go that people think you have something worth saying?

May 22, 2007 8:23 AM  
Blogger Robert said...

Thanks for transcribing that Jim. I was unable to listen to the link on my commputer. When they said hate, I was expecting a diatribe, cursing, etc. The teacher didn't say anything negative about ex-gays, just about PFOX handing out fliers. Doesn't sound like hatred to me. But then I think PFOX the whole ex-gay thing is at least moderately unpleasant, and telling people it's sinful to be gay is hateful.

rrjr

May 22, 2007 8:54 AM  
Blogger JimK said...

BTW, I should have mentioned in this post, the "***" symbols are just where I couldn't tell what she was saying, not where I censored something.

JimK

May 22, 2007 9:07 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

We have a democratic, Constitutional process that has decided that teachers and administrators can't censor what students read. If this teacher can't abide by that, she should go find a private school group that agrees with alternative view of reality and go there to work.

Don't use our tax dollars to keep the students from knowing where help is available.

May 22, 2007 9:52 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I find this extremely offensive that any student would be forced to read material alongside their report cards"

No student is being forced to read anything from PFOX. As has been noted, most will throw it away without looking at it.

They will, however, be forced to read the upcoming pro-gay curriculum concocted by a stacked CAC.

"and not get an affirming document from an organization like SMYAL, the Sexual Minority Youth Assistance League,"

To my knowledge, PFOX has not fought against any other groups' flyers. To say they are responsible for distributing an opposing view is preposterous.

May 22, 2007 10:14 AM  
Blogger Robert said...

"We have a democratic, Constitutional process that has decided that teachers and administrators can't censor what students read."

It doesn't say exactly that. It says that if the school creates a limited open forum by allowing some views, it must allow all. I'm just waiting for the Klan to start distributing fliers somewhere.

I think MCPS shouldn't allow any fliers. A shame, but Child Evangelism Fellowship (of which I was once a member) and PFOX force their views on unsupportive school systems and students.

I'm a big supporter of free speech. I just think PFOX's materials are actively harmful to children.

Robert

May 22, 2007 10:48 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I'm a big supporter of free speech."

As long as it doesn't contradict the gay agenda.

May 22, 2007 10:57 AM  
Anonymous Warning, facts ahead said...

"They will, however, be forced to read the upcoming pro-gay curriculum concocted by a stacked CAC."

The CAC did not "concoct" or write the curriculum. They simply reviewed it and made recommendations to improve it. The MCPS curriculum itself was written by professional staff at MCPS under the guidance of pediatricians from Childrens Hospital who are members of the American Academy of Pediatrics, included some who specialize in adolescent health.

May 22, 2007 11:01 AM  
Blogger Robert said...

PFOX has encouraged its adherents to take action against GSAs (which, for some reason, they see as chapters of some non-existent unitary national organization), and at other times encouraged starting "Gay-to-Straight" clubs (which, as far as I know, exist in no high or middle schools), and most recently encouraged the distribution of PFOX fliers in schools that have GSAs.

rrjr

May 22, 2007 11:40 AM  
Blogger Robert said...

"...gay agenda."

5:15 Wake up.
6:00 Drive to work.
12:00 Lunch.
3:00 Go to gym.
4:00 Corrupt children.
4:30 Dishes and/or laundry.
5:30 Call mother.
8:30 Bed.

May 22, 2007 12:59 PM  
Blogger Robert said...

Misunderstanding anonymous said:

"As long as it doesn't contradict the gay agenda."

No, silly anonymous; I don't mind disagreement. It is my strongly held opinion that information about reparative therapy, transformational ministries and other aspects of the "ex-gay movement" are actively harmful to children.

I'm opposed to harm to children. Aren't you?

Btw, are you Sisyphus?

rrjr

May 22, 2007 1:08 PM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

Anonymous said "Don't use our tax dollars to keep the students from knowing where help is available.".

Trouble is Anonymous, PFOX doesn't offer help, they merely add to the rejection and destruction of self-esteem gay youth need relief from. PFOX does the opposite of help. The work by Spitzer and Shidloe and Schroeder shows people can't change from gay to straight. PFOX knows this and they merely use that pretense to cover their real goal which is to oppress gay people and deny them equal rights.

May 22, 2007 3:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Andrea said
But Robert, what about the notorious gay lifestyle- not just the gay "agenda"? I know my gay neighbors are out there teaching their son to ride his bike and play baseball(I've seen them do this right out in our street!), walking the dog, and working in their garden. They even go to the local independent grocery and buy food and cook meals- I think they have been known to barbecue! They will probably also be part of the big neighborhood yard sale. Shocking, shocking!

Andrea

May 22, 2007 4:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

""...gay agenda."

5:15 Wake up.
6:00 Drive to work.
12:00 Lunch.
3:00 Go to gym.
4:00 Corrupt children.
4:30 Dishes and/or laundry.
5:30 Call mother.
8:30 Bed."

Where's the gay club you sponsor at the school fit in?

May 22, 2007 7:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"No, silly anonymous; I don't mind disagreement. It is my strongly held opinion that information about reparative therapy, transformational ministries and other aspects of the "ex-gay movement" are actively harmful to children."

Some would say G-S clubs in schools are harmful to kids. Why is your opinion the only one that should be heard?

May 22, 2007 7:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rumor has it that O J Simpson taught his son to play baseball, walked the dog, worked in his garden, and went to the grocery store.

May 22, 2007 7:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The work by Spitzer and Shidloe and Schroeder shows people can't change from gay to straight."

Yes, we've all seen Spitzer's videos.

May 22, 2007 7:20 PM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

Anonymous said "Some would say G-S clubs in schools are harmful to kids. Why is your opinion the only one that should be heard?".

Because that is the only opinion backed by the best knowledge and most authoritative instutions around - every major medical and mental health organization agrees that being gay is not an illness and that the problems gays experience are due to social oppression of bigots like you.

May 22, 2007 7:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Because that is the only opinion backed by the best knowledge and most authoritative instutions around - every major medical and mental health organization agrees that being gay is not an illness and that the problems gays experience are due to social oppression of bigots like you."

As Jim has reported today, one organization, APA, which the other organizations you refer to defer to, is revisiting the issue. Kind of like their president hinted at last summer.

May 22, 2007 8:37 PM  
Blogger Robert said...

"G-S clubs"

Just so you'll know, Gay-Straight Alliances are known as GSAs. There doesn't seem to be any abbreviation yet for Gay-to-Straight clubs, because they are so far imaginary entities.

May 23, 2007 7:21 AM  
Blogger Robert said...

"Where's the gay club you sponsor at the school fit in?"

GSA meetings at FCHS were Wednesdays at 2:20 this year. The S in GSA is real. It's a phenomenon in GSAs that about 1/3 to 1/2 the participants in many clubs are straight girls. As you would guess, very few straight boys participate; why do you think this is.

These are of course only guesses, as we don't ask students to announce their sexual orientation. I wonder what they do in the imaginary world of Gay-2-Straight clubs (maybe we should call them G2S clubs)

May 23, 2007 7:44 AM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

Anonymous said "As Jim has reported today, one organization, APA, which the other organizations you refer to defer to, is revisiting the issue. Kind of like their president hinted at last summer.".

Anonymous, they aren't reconsidering the benefits of GSAs, they're reconsidering whether or not they should ban "reparative therapy" entirely rather than simply recommending against it.

May 23, 2007 12:03 PM  
Blogger UntwistedTruth.com said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

May 24, 2007 5:42 PM  
Blogger UntwistedTruth.com said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

May 24, 2007 5:47 PM  
Blogger UntwistedTruth.com said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

May 24, 2007 6:43 PM  
Blogger UntwistedTruth.com said...

The idea that just because Robert wants to 'believe' that any information about change is harmful to children and so should be banned is ludicrous.

Even the APA supports the right to self determination for those with unwanted same-sex attraction. Nobody is owned by the gay movement, expecially our children.

Perhaps he would be more supportive of the distribution in schools of studies from both CDC and NIH that confirm homosexuals have much higher rates of drug abuse, alcohol abuse, STD's, AIDS, suicide ideation, depression, anxiety, domestic violence and promiscuity than any other subset of society.

If Robert really cares about harm to children, then gay-affirming activities and curriculums in K-12 schools should be last on the list.

For a teacher to prefer ignorance to truth when teaching OUR children is hateful.

Ex-gays are an inconvenient truth that gays hate for no reason other than it flies in the face of their civil rights mantra "We're born that way." Meanwhile, the APA and scientific bodies agree that homosexuality is a combination of biology, environment, and cognitions.

Yet, the MCPS curriculum specifically says "Sexual orientation is innate" contrary to current scientific agreement.

"warning, facts ahead" said the curriculum wasn't concocted because some pediatricians were involved who belonged to American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP). But according to the AAP, premature labeling of one's sexual orientation increases the risk of attempted teen suicide by two to seven times.

Clinical psychologist Dr. Dean A. Byrd says "Research is very conclusive in this area: the risk of suicide decreases by 20% for each year that a young person delays homosexual or bisexual self-labeling (Remafidi et al, 1991)."

So when children are told they are born that way, as the Montgomery Schools curriculum mandates for teachers, and every attempt is made to deny the students access to information that change is possible, is it rocket science to conclude that such an environment promotes erroneous self-labeling?

Maybe "MCPS mom" should care a little more for her children and others to research the facts instead of accepting politically correct ideology which makes her life easier but puts her own children at risk.

Somebody explain why ex-gays have to prove that they exist even when they are standing in the room but gays can just say over and over that they are born that way while parents and educators steamroll over the truth.

Self-chosen ignorance that puts children at risk for ideolgy is hateful.

May 24, 2007 6:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The mighty Oz has spoken!

May 24, 2007 10:51 PM  
Anonymous Warning, facts ahead said...

"warning, facts ahead" said the curriculum wasn't concocted because some pediatricians were involved who belonged to American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP). But according to the AAP, premature labeling of one's sexual orientation increases the risk of attempted teen suicide by two to seven times.

The curriculum written by MCPS staff under the guidance of pediatricians who are members of the AAP including some who specialize in adolescent health does not encourage "premature labeling" of anything. Over 90% of MCPS students were given permission to take the class by their parents or guardians who had the opportunity to review the entire pilot curriculum and materials and to discuss any concerns about the pilot curriculum with health teachers. Remember, every one of these parents and guardians at pilot schools was contacted by CRC with letters and phone calls complaining about this supposed "premature labelling." More than 90% rejected CRC's repeated messages of hate and fear.

You can stop spouting studies by Byrd or any other NARTH member. There are hundreds of thousands of MDs and PhDs who work in the fields of psychiatry and psychology. NARTH has fewer than 1,000 members and many of them do not hold MDs or PhDs but work at ex-gay ministries. NARTH is well known among medical and mental health professionals for working outside ethical boundaries in the fields of psychiatry and psychology. These facts make it clear that an MD or PhD would have to be a real homophobe to seek out NARTH membership.

"every attempt is made to deny the students access to information that change is possible"

The fact is that PFOX and other non-profit organizations are free to distribute their flyers at every school.

May 25, 2007 6:59 AM  
Blogger Robert said...

"Utwisted truth" is well-schooled in the rheotric of the more anti-gay wing of the ex-gay movement.

UT, are you a paid employee of any of those organizations? you spout the party line very well.

rrjr

May 25, 2007 9:00 AM  
Anonymous Merle said...

Methinks Untwisted Truth sounds a lot like the person we know as Retta, or CRCPrecious, or Bianca.

Merle

May 25, 2007 9:17 AM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

Twisted Truth said "Perhaps he would be more supportive of the distribution in schools of studies from both CDC and NIH that confirm homosexuals have much higher rates of drug abuse, alcohol abuse, STD's, AIDS, suicide ideation, depression, anxiety, domestic violence and promiscuity than any other subset of society.".

Not true Twisted Truth, blacks have similar social problems and this is not due to being black or gay, but due to being a persecuted minority. It is the oppression and demonization by people like you that cause these problems. Would you support teaching children that blacks have much higher rates of drug abuse, alcohol abuse, STD's, AIDS, suicide ideation, depression, anxiety, domestic violence and promiscuity? Not likely, yet by your twisted logic we should.

Twisted Truth said "Ex-gays are an inconvenient truth that gays hate for no reason other than it flies in the face of their civil rights mantra "We're born that way." Meanwhile, the APA and scientific bodies agree that homosexuality is a combination of biology, environment, and cognitions.".

We don't hate so-called ex-gays, we hate the misrepresentation of these people as having changed same sex attractions into opposite sex attractions - they clearly have not done this. The vast majority of so-called "exgays", when pressed, admit that they are still same sex attracted and they are merely repressing their desires - ask Alan Chambers, the head of Exodus, he admits he is anything but heterosexual. There are no objective tests (such as lie detectors or penile plethysmographs) that have been done to demonstrate claims of change, and with good reason - so-called "exgays" are afraid to be exposed as the liars they are.

The APA says nothing about "cognitions" being involved in determining sexual orientation - stop lying. And environment includes biological environment which contrary to the exgay lie is not something that can be trained out of people. Increasing numbers of scientists, the majority, believe being gay is innate and cannot be changed except in the most rare and exceptional circumstances. The studies by Spitzer and Shidloe and Shroeder proved this. Bisexuals repressing their same sex attractions are not "exgay" in the common meaning of the word and these are the only people who can live as "exgay".

And as far as Remefedi goes, the reason why teenagers who reveal their gayness at younger ages are more prone to suicide is because the younger you are when you come out the more bigotry, oppression, and attacks you are exposed to and the less well equiped you are to deal with it. Its people like you who demonize gays who are responsible for these suicides.

Maybe YOU should care a little more for children instead of pushing your hateful and destructive ideology.

May 25, 2007 11:42 AM  
Blogger UntwistedTruth.com said...

Why should ex-gays have to "prove" their orientation change while for 30 years gays have not been able to prove homosexual behavior is innate?

Is homosexuality innate and immutable?

UNTWISTED TRUTH...researchers disagree to varying degrees. But, at the end of the day, absolutley noone is claiming to have proven innatenous or immutability [except for gay activists].

The most famous researchers, 4-star experts and several who self-identify as gay, say:

Robert L. Spitzer, M.D.(Professor of Biometric Research, Columbia U.,
Chief of Psychiatric Research, New York State Psychiatric Inst.): The majority of participants gave reports of change from a predominantly or exclusively homosexual orientation before therapy to a predominantly or exclusively heterosexual orientation in the past year. Reports of complete change were uncommon. The Archives of Sexual Behavior (Vol. 32, No. 5, pp. 403-417)

Dean H. Hamer, Ph.D. (Chief, Section on Gene Structure and Regulation, Laboratory of Biochemistry, National Cancer Institute): "Most scientists now agree that the very wording of the question [nature vs. nurture?] represents a false dichotomy and that both biology and the environment play some role in virtually all human behavior."

Richard Pillard, M.D.(Professor of Psychiatry at the Boston University School of Medicine
): "A problem [exists] for those of us who favor a genetic basis for sexual orientation ...I have scraps and clues, hypothesis and sometimes hang together but that also have gaps...The most I can say is that no one has yet put forward evidence that is devastating to my case." ("The Genetic Theory of Sexual Orientation," Harvard Gay and Lesbian Review, Winter 1997, pp. 61-67)

Simon LeVay, Ph.D. (Neurologist and author in the area of brain structure and sexual orientation): "It's important to stress what I didn't find. I did not prove that homosexuality is genetic, or find a genetic cause for being gay. I didn't show that gay men are born that way, the most common mistake people make in interpreting my work. Nor did I locate a gay center in the brain." ("Sexual Brain" published in Discover (Vol. 5, No. 3, pp. 64-67)

William M. Byne, M.D./Ph.D. (Director, Laboratory of Neuroanatomy and Morphometrics, Mount Sinai School of Medicine):"...[T]here is no evidence at present to substantiate a biologic theory." (Archives of General Psychiatry, 1993)

The reality that some other highly credible scientists theorize that homosexuality is innate is not the point: noone has proven it one way of the other.

Shouting that any biological influence means innate and immutable is the same as claiming people born to be tall have no choice but to behave as basketball players for the rest of their lives.

And even if a definitive biological link to same-sex attraction should ever be confirmed, so what? Transexuals can drastically cut up their bodies to achieve their self-defined goals but homosexuals cannot take steps to become heterosexual because gays forbid it?

Is it tolerant to label all ex-gays as liars? To deny others' individual right of self-determination? To simply rant about others being anti-gay, homphobic, oppressive, demonizing, hateful, and bigoted because they don't believe what we want to?

Only propagandists use such tactics when the truth is in their way.

So now, just why should questioning children be taught by MCPS only one theory that same-sex attraction is innate and that they have no individual choice?

May 25, 2007 7:21 PM  
Blogger Randi Schimnosky said...

Twisted truth, study after study points in the direction of gayness being innate. Any one of these might be questioned, but when taken as a whole the idea that it isn't innate becomes so increasingly unlikely as to be entirely dismissable.

In studies of identical twins between 20 and 50% of the time when one twin is gay the other is as well. This greatly exceeds the odds of roughly 5% or so to be expected if genes had nothing to do with it. Gays have different finger lengths than straights, different eye-blink rates, different hearing, different reaction to and production of pheremones, different startle reactions, mental abilities that are more consistent with the opposite sex than heterosexuals of their sex, brain structures more consistent with the opposite sex than heterosexuals of the same sex, mothers with same chromosone deactivation are much more likely to give birth to gay sons, the more older biological brothers a son has the more likely he is to be gay even if he does not live with those brothers and so on.

All these studies point towards gay being biologically based and the majority of mental and physical health professionals are in agreement that being gay is innate and unchangeable. You have to be willfully blind (which you obviously are) to ignore the implications of all these studies - being gay is innate.

Spitzer also said, (which you conveniently ignored like the deceiver you are):

It's understandable that Focus on the Family would be delighted with the results of my study because the study did indicate that there was evidence that some gays can change not only their Sexual Identity but their Sexual Orientation, fantasy and arousal, so of course they are,were delighted with that study. What they failed to mention, and it's not I guess a big surprise, is that in the Discussion I noted that it was so hard for me to find 200 subjects to participate in the study, that I have to conclude that although change is possible and does occur, it's probably quite rare. And of course, they don't want to mention that."

"I suspect the vast majority of gay people would be unable to alter by much a firmly established homosexual orientation."

"...the kinds of changes my subjects reported are highly unlikely to be available to the vast majority [of gays and lesbians]... "[only] a small minority -- perhaps 3% -- might have a "malleable" sexual orientation." He expressed a concern that his study results were being "twisted by the Christian right."

Wayne Besen, gay activist and author of Anything But Straight: Unmasking the Scandals and Lies Behind the Ex-Gay Myth, wrote in his book:
“Despite our insistence, Spitzer elected not to use physical evidence to corroborate the ex-gay testimonies. I asked him why he had refused to use either the polygraph or the penile plethysmograph on his subjects. According to Spitzer, “there was no way he could get his subjects to submit to such tests.” It never seemed to dawn on Spitzer that these individuals were doggedly avoiding these truth-detecting instruments because they were not telling the truth.” (Besen, Wayne. Anything But Straight: Unmasking the Scandals and Lies Behind the Ex-Gay Myth.)

Assuming that the more than 1,000 therapists in NARTH each have had 50 clients per year over the previous five years, then they have treated over 250,000 homosexuals and bisexuals with reparative therapy. Various transformational ministries have treated other gays, bisexuals and lesbians who were seeking change. Yet, Dr. Spitzer was only able to find 274 potential subjects for his study in all of America. This data alone indicates that reparative therapy is almost always a failure.

Twisted truth said "And even if a definitive biological link to same-sex attraction should ever be confirmed, so what? Transexuals can drastically cut up their bodies to achieve their self-defined goals but homosexuals cannot take steps to become heterosexual because gays forbid it?"

Gays can do whatever they want with their lives, but the fact of the matter is that in virtually no cases can a gay become heterosexual and that kind of lie is the only thing gays would like to forbid. And to turn your argument back on itself, even if being gay is a choice, no gay owes it to you to change for your sake. If it weren't for the oppresssion, rejection, and demonization of people like you there wouldn't be any gays pursuing the false hope of a change in orientation - the problem is you and people like you.

Twisted truth said "So now, just why should questioning children be taught by MCPS only one theory that same-sex attraction is innate and that they have no individual choice?".

Because the best evidence and the knowledge of the majority of researchers (including Spitzer who you quote mined) show that same-ex attraction is innate and that virtually no one can change their orientation and many are harmed by the attempt to do so.

May 26, 2007 12:25 PM  
Anonymous Aunt Bea said...

Nice reply to vitriol above, Randi.

unTWIsTedtruth said "...
innatenous..."

Say what? Do you mean "innateness?"

unTWIsTedtruth quoted "...[T]here is no evidence at present to substantiate a biologic theory." (Archives of General Psychiatry, 1993)"

1993 was 14 years ago. Many studies in those 14 years have done exactly that -- "substantiate a biologic theory" of sexual orientation. Randi's correct. The sum of all these studies indicates a strong biological basis for sexual orientation.

unTWIsTedtruth said Transexuals can drastically cut up their bodies to achieve their self-defined goals but homosexuals cannot take steps to become heterosexual because gays forbid it?

Trangender people are born in the wrong bodies. Doctors in the field labored to change their self perception for decades. Various and repeated attempts failed miserably. Doctors in this field have learned that altering the body to fit the self perception resolves the conflict between body and brain.

Some men and women seek cosmetic surgery from breast augmentation to hair implants for "self-defined goals." Do you disapprove of these people "drastically cut[ting] up their bodies to achieve their self-defined goals" too?

The reason many homosexuals do not take steps to become heterosexual is because of the harm most attempted religion-based sexual orientation altering treatments have been demonstrated to cause, not because anyone forbids it.

May 26, 2007 1:58 PM  
Blogger UntwistedTruth.com said...

Thanks for repeating my point: it's only theory that biology may be one component and noone denied that in the first place.

That clearly is not the same as innateness. MCPS says innate.

You both like to argue all around the point in ever widening circles to avoid the reality:

Noone--not one any of the most acclaimed researchers--claims to have proven homosexuality is innate or immutable.

May 28, 2007 11:29 AM  
Blogger JimK said...

UT, nobody claims to have proven that sexual orientation is innate because there is no question about it. To deny it, you have to reject the self-reports of nearly everyone who was ever born.

It seems to me that there may be a small number of gay people who choose to live as if they were straight -- what is called "the closet." You want to make a big deal out of that, as if it were a great accomplishment to live a lie. Most people these days aren't impressed. It's easy to see why someone would do that -- for instance, there are people like you out there -- but everyone understands that those people are innately homosexual.

JimK

May 28, 2007 11:41 AM  
Anonymous Joe Vadis said...

Bottom line is homosexuality is wrong. Period. Whether you believe that or not is of no consequence as truth remains truth no matter what color man tries to paint it.

June 12, 2007 10:18 PM  

Post a Comment

<< Home