Wednesday, July 25, 2007

The Gazette Publishes an Offensive Slur

Yesterday's Gazette ran a letter that was unbelievable in its rudeness. First of all I'll just show you the letter, in case you didn't see it. It's from Maria Peña-Faustino, who was a member of the MCPS citizens advisory committee that reviewed the new sex-ed curriculum. She sat right next to me, we got along, but we voted opposite on nearly everything. She voted with the CRC and PFOX members, if you look at the minutes you'll see a lot of 3-to-something votes. That was the three of them trying to get some nutty thing into the classes, and failing at that.

She wrote:
I have always been proud of living in Montgomery County because of the willingness to accept diversity.

I was a member of the Montgomery County Public Schools Citizens Advisory Committee for the last two years and helped to review the new sex-ed curriculum. I did not apply for reappointment because of the committee's refusal to include ex-gays and lesbians.

Some committee members either have a relative in an alternative lifestyle or are themselves gay.

I was shocked because this "liberal" committee voted to include all kinds of lifestyles but didn't include ex-gays or ex-transgenders. What about a committee that is more inclusive of others?

I was frustrated that my voice was silenced 99 percent of the time. I have served in several boards and commissions and have always being proud of my service, but in good faith I couldn't lend my name to a curriculum that does not reflect the population of Montgomery County and does not follow Montgomery County efforts of inclusion.

I do want to thank Dr. Jerry Weast, Brian Porter and the incredible staff of curriculum and instruction for their work and dedication. In contrast, I can’t let pass the attitudes of board members Sharon Cox and Patricia O'Neill, who challenge the opposition to bring on the lawsuits and that they're ready for it.

I can see how ready they are with our taxpayer money. They would sing a different tune if they had to pay from their own pockets. This money should be used to pay for our children's programs and not for lawsuits defending their un-inclusive thinking.

As Dr. Dana Beyer stated in his July 11 letter, "we need morality that welcomes all into the community with dignity and respect."

Maria Peña-Faustino, Laytonsville

The writer ran for County Council in 1998 and is a former member of the Citizens Advisory Committee.
Open forum: All-inclusive committee does not include ex-gays

OK, first of all, the committee included a representative of PFOX, the Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays and Gays. That rep was Peter Sprigg, of the Family Research Council. That's who they wanted -- they could have submitted names of any of the tens of thousands of "ex-gays" out there, but they couldn't find any instead they submitted Spriggs' name. He announced earlier this year that he is not "ex-gay," and described himself as "everstraight." If there are no "ex-gays" on the committee, it's really their own fault.

Second, these three tried to introduce language to the classes suggesting that "ex-gay" was a kind of sexual orientation. It's not. Never was, never will be. The varieties that are recognized everywhere are Heterosexual, Bisexual, Homosexual. If you were to describe a person who used to be gay and is now straight, their sexual orientation is Heterosexual. They're included already, end of story.

Uh, third, nobody ever silenced Maria's voice, ever. The CRC's Ruth Jacobs was asked to pipe down a couple of times, when she interrupted and tried to dominate the discussion, but I don't recall any instance of Maria being silenced. It would have been correct to say that most people didn't agree with her most of the time, but ... wow, that's why you put together a committee instead of just having one person decide everything, so you can have different opinions.

And the expense of a lawsuit, I'm sorry, that reasoning doesn't hold up, either. She is advising the school district to develop curricula designed to minimize the threat of lawsuits? No, that's not the ideal we look for here. Unfortunately they have to keep that in mind, but the reason we have some of the best schools in the country is that MCPS develops curricula to best educate our children. If you have to fight in court to do that, some board members have said, OK, we'll do it, let's roll.

But that's nothing, I wouldn't have written anything here if it was just that.

Her last sentence is the one that goes over the line:
As Dr. Dana Beyer stated in his July 11 letter, "we need morality that welcomes all into the community with dignity and respect."

Dr. Dana Beyer had a letter published in the Gazette on June 11th (HERE), where she encouraged science-based sex-ed in Montgomery County schools.

I said "she."

Maria Peña-Faustino knows Dana Beyer personally, I have seen them converse many times. Dr. Beyer is a well-known member of our community, who ran for office this last year and works in highly visible positions within the community. Dr. Beyer is a transgender woman. She is not a "he," and Maria knows that perfectly well.

In one citizens advisory committee meeting, the CRC's representative made a reference to Dr. Beyer as "him," and the other members, including me, were outraged. Several of us independently contacted the offender privately, and several of us informed the committee chair that a second offense would not be allowed.

When somebody makes a life-changing decision as important and difficult as Dana has made, they deserve our respect. You don't have to understand it or even approve of it, but Dana is a woman, and the feminine pronoun applies.

This wasn't an accident, Maria knew exactly what she was saying here. Out of one side of her mouth she's whining because PFOX didn't appoint an "ex-gay" to the committee, and that "ex-gays" don't get any respect, and out of the other side of her mouth she's showing disrespect and the absence of recognition of the reality of transgender people.

The Gazette should be ashamed of themselves, as well. They know who Dana Beyer is. Why did they publish this ugly slur? Is there an editorial staff over there, or not? Do they read the news before they print it?

Listen, it's easy to make a mistake here -- the English language forces us to choose the gender of pronouns, and transgender people challenge that usually-intuitive choice of words. This was a running joke in Rent, as I recall, everybody kept referring to the transvestite character as "him - I mean, her" throughout the play. That's a mistake, anybody can do it, you apologize and move on.

This was not a mistake. This was profound, unforgivable rudeness.

Here are a few links about Dana, mostly from the time of her campaign for Delegate last year.

Her campaign web site has lots of information about her.

Political Transition Democrat Dana Beyer fights to be Maryland's first transgender delegate A nice feature story in the Metro Weekly

MD-Delegate 18 - Dr. Dana Beyer - A Winning Transgendered Candidate? Daily Kos followed the race

A prescription for change: Transgender seeks district 18 house of delegate seat From the wonderful Silver Chips student paper at Montgomery Blair High School.
(Silver Chips at Montgomery Blair)

Trans candidate takes aim at political barriers: Beyer would be first elected statewide in Md. The Blade tells the story.

There was no mistake made here. Maria should apologize, and the Gazette should, too.

38 Comments:

Blogger BlackTsunami said...

I'm not surprised by this.

The cry for tolerance by PFOX and their supporters is no more than a propaganda technique.

It's obvious that tolerance is not what they are interested in.

July 26, 2007 1:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Interesting that TTF now considers not verbally supporting their worldview to be the equivalent of "slurring" someone. The assault on the English language continues unabated by common sense.

As far as I know, someone in the Dr's condition is considered a male. One's chromosomal profile doesn't change by having cosmetic surgery.

One indication that transgenders agree with this is that they often group themselves together with homosexuals. If they believed they had actually changed genders, wouldn't they consider themselves heterosexual?

We're left to believe that the feigned offense at being referred to by one's gender of birth is merely a political strategy- gay agenda types trying to force others to accede to their viewpoint.

July 26, 2007 1:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Gazette has corrected the on-line version of the offensive letter to the editor sent by the former CAC member who has decided to opt out of continuing to serve her community.

http://www.gazette.net/stories/072507/montlet220112_32383.shtml

The staff at the Gazette apparently understands that the personal insult directed toward Dr. Beyer reflects as badly on them as it does on Ms. Pena-Faustino. Congratulations to the staff of the Gazette for doing the right thing.

July 26, 2007 2:47 PM  
Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

Yousef,

I have tried, tried to educate the public, which includes you, as to the biology of sex and gender. If you scan back over the history of this blog you will find my posts on these issues.

You are correct -- my chromosomes have not changed. Nor have my genes. But my chromosmes and genes WERE changed in utero when I was exposed to DES, causing me to develop a female brain along with male genitalia. They were changed in the first trimester of my fetal development.

Since we assign sex at birth based on the genital appearance (which is not always possible and leads to errors and confusion in a variety of intersex conditions in addition to mine), we err when we give primacy to genital sex over brain sex. Usually this is not a problem, since it occurs in fewer than 1% of live births. Your gender identity, your sense of self, is a function of your brain, not your genitals. Science and medicine accept this now almost unanimously.

So, for me at birth my genetic and epigenetic condition was intersex. My genitals and gonads were male. My hormonal system was primarily male but not exclusively so. My brain was female.

My legal status was originally male, and is now female -- birth certificate, driver's license, passport, etc. My genitals and hormones are now female as well.

That's my current situation. To treat me as anything other than female based on your incorrect presumption about my chromosomes is offensive. Some people are in transition from one sex to the other, and then the decent approach is to refer to them by the gender in which they are appearing.

As for associating ourselves with the gay community, we do so because we are both sexual minorities and know quite clearly what it's like to be attacked and smeared by bigotry. Trans men and women may be gay, straight, or bisexual.

I hope this clears up your confusion.

July 26, 2007 4:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I’m confused. As we understand it, Dana is the “father” of children. At the time you conceived your children, did your brain tell you were a man or women? If your brain told you were a women, what made you think that two women having sex together could conceived? Is it possible that at the time you participated in the conception of your children your brain thought you were a man and was right?
Are you now saying, your brain and your semen were wrong?
Are you sure your children really exist?

July 26, 2007 5:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Confused" is not the word I'd use to describe you, Anon. You are a bigoted, small-minded, cowardly SOB.

July 26, 2007 7:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Good for the Gazette. First, they declined to publish the letter in their print editions. That is what the Open Forum designation means. My understanding is that the Gazette posts the letters it receives but does not publish in print on its website.

Second, they made the correction to avoid even posting mean-spirited letters. Maria should thank them.

July 26, 2007 9:11 PM  
Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

This is the email I sent to Maria last night:

Maria,

I have always treated you with dignity and respect when we've met during the CAC meetings and elsewhere. I want you to know that I believe you deliberately insulted me in your letter to The Gazette this week, and compounded it by making the insult in the same sentence where you quoted me on tolerance and respect.

You owe me a public apology.

Dana Beyer

Oh, Anon, I'm sure your mother is very proud of your gross ignorance and even more your penchant for proclaiming it publicly.

July 26, 2007 9:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous: You are disgraceful, mean-spirited, nasty, obnoxious,rude,and a myriad of other perjorative adjectives. You need to learn to mind your own business and stop insulting and humiliating other people. Your comments demand an apology to Dana. Perhaps a dose of Christian charity would cleanse you of your evil. I hope you are permanently banned from TTF Vigilence! There should be no place for you here where you subject others to your hatefulness.

July 26, 2007 11:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think it is relevant to look at Maria's statement to the board of education, and Grace's Harleys statement to the board of education.

Both of them indicate the intolerance of not including ex-gays in the curriculum, Grace is an ex-transgender.

So, how is it "terribly rude" to call Dana a he, when at the same time you are pretending (quite vehemently) people like Grace don't exist ?

I am just wondering how you justify this. Seems pretty hypocritical to me.

Theresa




"Dear Members of the Montgomery County Board of Education:


I have served as a volunteer for over 20 years in Montgomery County. I was
grateful that you placed enough confidence in my judgment to appoint me to the
CACFLHD. I did not have any agenda except making sure all of our students are served best. I did not read anything about the lawsuit, the condom video, or
try to influence any of you for my appointment.
At the last CACFLHD meeting, I walked with frustration.
At the meeting, after the committee finished discussing adding the tern
transgender, the term ex-gays was also offered to be added to the vocabulary.
The committee has been tolerant, open and supportive of homosexuals. I was
absolutely stunned to see that the other category that of "ex-gay" in the 10th
grade dictionary was not allowed to be added.
I lived in New York for 18 years and fwe of my best friends were gay. Two
died of AIDS. Two left the gay life style and married women. One lives in
California. The other married in New York and moved to Florida. The other
one is still gay. So even though I did not have an agenda, 1 think the need
to support "one more choice" that of "ex-gay" is just and fair. I have
seen it with my own eyes.
I did not know anything about anyone on this committee. I initially
thought the committee was tolerant, open, and giving. I have
been disturbed to find total opposition and bias from the committee.(Votes
always 11-3) 1 feel my vote is a waste of time. I feel responsible to you for the
outcome. I don't know if I am going back to the committee.
Respectful,
Maria Peiia-Faustino"

"My name is Grace Harley. I live in Montgomery County and my grandchildren attend the Montgomery County Public Schools.
I am a former transgender and lived as a man for over 10 years. I am now a member ofPFOX, Parents and Friends of Ex-Gays & Gays.

I speak today because I am concerned that your proposed lesson plans for students on sexual orientation do not include former homosexuals or former transgenders like myself.
The lesson plans teach children about homosexuals, bisexuals, lesbians, transgenders,
coming out for gays, gender identity, homophobia, and intersexual, but no ex-gays. Why is the ex-gay community being censored in the lesson plans when every other sexual orientation is discussed and supported?
Lesson plans for our children and grandchildren are entitled "Respect
for Differences in Human Sexuality" and promote acceptance for homosexuals, transgendered and the intersexed. Yet the only sexual orientation in our school system which receives no respect are ex-gays and former transgenders like myself. The committee members you appointed to develop the lesson plans show outright disrespect of the ex-gay community and even question our existence. Yet these same members promote tolerance for gays and transgenders. Their
hosiility to formerhomosexuals proves that ex-gays need to be part of your "Respect sexual differences"lesson plans. Otherwise, the student lesson plans serve no purpose but to promote homosexuality and cross dressing when ex-gays are the only sexual orientation group in this school system that not receive respect and tolerance.

Grace Harley"

July 27, 2007 12:15 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dr. Beyer:

You may find the use of 'he' as disrpectful and impolite but it is in fact biological accurate.

Did you fight for any viewpoint other than gay theory, genital sex v. brain sex, gender is a construct? Whether or not you believe, they are nothing but theories...and radical at that.

Did you fight for exgays? Did you fight for medical warnings on anal sex to be included? As an MD, did you fight for any 'patient rights' that don't match your worldview and politics?

You are all so offended while denigrating any other viewpoints.

You stated, "Science and medicine accept [brain v. genital sex] now almost unanimously." That is an absolutely missleading statement. You well know that transsexuality is considered a gender identity disorder.

Don't bother trying to educate others....we'd be happy if you just lived by your hypocratic oath.

Noone owes you an apology. Your victimhood is so tedius.

July 27, 2007 12:47 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dr. Beyer:

You may find the use of 'he' as disrpectful and impolite but it is in fact biological accurate.

Did you fight for any viewpoint other than gay theory, genital sex v. brain sex, gender is a construct? Whether or not you believe, they are nothing but theories...and radical at that.

Did you fight for exgays? Did you fight for medical warnings on anal sex to be included? As an MD, did you fight for any 'patient rights' that don't match your worldview and politics?

You are all so offended while denigrating any other viewpoints.

You stated, "Science and medicine accept [brain v. genital sex] now almost unanimously." That is an absolutely missleading statement. You well know that transsexuality is considered a gender identity disorder.

Don't bother trying to educate others....we'd be happy if you just lived by your hypocratic oath.

Noone owes you an apology. Your victimhood is so tedius.

July 27, 2007 12:47 AM  
Blogger Orin Ryssman said...

I don't, for the life of me, understand this advocacy of the "ex-gay" in the curriculum...it strikes me as weak, and well...nutty.

July 27, 2007 5:08 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Give It A Rest! said...
“You may find the use of 'he' as disrpectful and impolite but it is in fact biological accurate.”
___
Let me get this “straight.” You’re offended by the use of a pronoun, he vs. she, for the sake of respect -- but you think people who are transgendered are the problem for existing?

Good god man, if you’re offended by sound waves, THAT’S a mental disorder.

Just say that you hate gay/transgender people and be done with it. You'd at least retain some measure of credibility.

July 27, 2007 6:21 AM  
Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

I've actually fought for all my patients, and I think I'm not exaggerating to say I've probably done more good on this earth than you ever will.

I would treat a gay patient or a trans patient no different than I would an individual who once lived as gay or trans. It's irrelevant.

Yes, it's still called "gender identity disorder," since the manual was last revised back in 1992, but it is not recognized as such. The term was coined by psychiatrists before it was understood that everyone has a gender identity. If it were a disorder of gender identity, then fifty years of trying to cure it as such would have worked. Instead, the cure is social transition and genital reconstruction, which has a 98% success rate. Sounds like a done deal to me, and any other scientist in this group, of which you obviously are not a part.

July 27, 2007 7:34 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

During the years Grace Harley spent living as a man, I would have respected that decision and used male pronouns. Now that she is living as a woman, I have no problem using female pronouns. I am simply showing respect for a fellow human being. Sorry you don't get that. Anonjoe/yousef apparently has not learned to "do unto others as you would have others do unto you" at his church or in all his scripture study.

Research has repeatedly documented that the vast majority of gay people who attempt conversion therapy fail and many are harmed by the experience. Our schools should not encourage our teens to engage in such risky so-called "therapy." And it's not really "therapy" anyway. It's "religious counseling" according to Exodus and "coaching" according to Richard Cohen. It is not covered by insurance and there are no requirements to meet state health codes for the facilities where it is offered.

Here in MCPS schools there is not one Gay-To-Straight Club but there are several Gay-Straight Alliances, indicating that LGBT teens are much more common locally than ex-gay and ex-transgender teens. The extremely rare person who claims to be ex-gay or ex-transgender also claims to be straight. I haven't heard that any such person has stepped forward at MCPS, have you Theresa? Nobody's claiming they don't exist, just that they are extremely rare. However, even though they are rare, they should be happy because the entire multi-week sex ed curriculum is about the heterosexuality they now embrace, except for the 90 minutes of revised new lessons called "Respect for Differences in Human Sexuality."

July 27, 2007 8:14 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Emproph:

Try learning to read. It's not me who's offended by the pronoun.

The rest of your rant just shows who you really are: a hatemonger that disguises it by projecting it onto others.

July 27, 2007 2:41 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh it's clear as day who the hatemongers are. It's easy to tell which posters here hate people for their sexual orientation and gender identity.

Emproph got it right. Each one of you should: Just say that you hate gay/transgender people and be done with it. You'd at least retain some measure of credibility.

July 27, 2007 4:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dr. Beyer:

You want to imply an insult by playing the scientist card?

As an "MD" did you demand inclusion of common medical warnings from CDC, Surgeon General , et al in the curriculum as requested by 270 of your fellow Montgomery County MDs as important to health and well being of students?

As you say 50 years and its still classified as GID.

The pressure to remove GID from DSM is because its classfication as a disorder is problematic with homosexuality even though GID was added to DSM almost a decade afterwards. That is the crux of the current writing in the professional debate.

People with Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID) and BDD also feel compelled to radically change their bodies by even removing limbs.

The surgical 'cure' can alleviate the discordant psychological distress but the efficacy of the cure doesn't illuminate underlying pathology of the presenting symptoms or suggest normalcy.

Unlike you, I won't presume how much good you've done based on your personal situation and viewpoint.

Try not to undo all that by rationalizing that restricting information to your worldview, self-interest, and the goals of LGBT theorists is the greater good.

July 27, 2007 5:10 PM  
Blogger andrea said...

The fake formerly anon names don't fool anyone. Just the same small minded, mean idiot posting again and again. How sad- and yet how typical.

July 27, 2007 8:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks Andrea for that deeply intellectual analysis. Yes...so typical.

July 27, 2007 8:51 PM  
Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

Hey, Give it a Rest,

One extended question -- what would you do without your penis? Could you function? Would you still be a man?

And if so, how could you be a man without a penis?

July 27, 2007 9:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The fake formerly anon names don't fool anyone. Just the same small minded, mean idiot posting again and again. How sad- and yet how typical."

Actually, the anon you so detest has been posting under the "joe" pseudonyms.

I think I'll be Jor-el today.

I don't know the other anons that have been posting this week.

July 27, 2007 9:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"give it a rest"--you posts are familiar in their voice. what are your credentials?

July 28, 2007 6:15 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

"One extended question -- what would you do without your penis? Could you function? Would you still be a man? And if so, how could you be a man without a penis?"

Are post-operative double mastectomy and/or full hysterectomy women medically classified as half-men or some new gender?

Losing or altering body parts, intentionally or unintentionally, may affect functionality and appearance but doesn't change sex.

BTW...

1. Reputable scientists don't withhold facts to advance their own position when that may endanger innocents.

2. "Science" does not speak. The scientific method yields data which is then interpreted by humans--for better or for worse.

July 28, 2007 12:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
"give it a rest"--you posts are familiar in their voice. what are your credentials?

July 28, 2007 6:15 AM

Opposing forces love to change the topic by attacking the other's credibility. This facilitates not having to defend their own position or defeat the opposing narrative.

The only credential I wish to claim is a voice of rational, reasonable, factual argument which is open to scutiny and correction.

Statments and positions either meet those standards or do not. They are not limited to people with terminal degrees and initials after their names.

Josef Mengele was a Ph.D. and M.D. so it's really not that important that my professional credentials happen to qualify me as an expert--or scientist as Dr. Beyer now seems to prefer.

July 28, 2007 2:04 PM  
Blogger Robert said...

Dear friends,

In many gatherings of LGBT and allied people, as an introductory activity, we often ask people to say what their 'preferred gender pronouns' are (i.e. masculine, feminine or gender-neutral), along with such things as name, where you're from, etc. We do this so we can be polite to one another. Did you anti-lgbt people catch that? Polite. We should value politeness. I am myself intolerant of rudeness.

A reason for being intolerant of the ex-gay claptrap isn't that ex-gay people don't exist, but that ex-gay speakers and 'supporters' are invariably anti-lgbt. PFOX, for all that it presents itself as simply advocating acceptance of ex-gays, recently sent us an email defending use of the word 'fag' in discussion of gay people and sexual orientation. Exodus, for all its front as a referral agency for transformational ministries, opposes the Employment Non-discrimination Act, the Matthew Shepard Act, and supports don't ask/don't tell and sodomy laws. I fully support the rights of people who identify as ex-gay to be free of harassment and discrimination. However, the ex-gay movement is most noteworthy for its attacks on lgbt people, and loses all credibility as a result.

Orin said:

don't, for the life of me, understand this advocacy of the "ex-gay" in the curriculum...it strikes me as weak, and well...nutty."

God bless you Orin. I was involved in the ex-gay movement for many years, and if we ever meet can tell you stories that would peel the skin off your eyes.

Yours in the Pacific Time Zone,

Robert

July 28, 2007 11:50 PM  
Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

My point, to the fellow who mentioned Dr. Mengele, as if he's at all relevant to this discussion, is that you know you're a man because your brain determines your sense of gender identity. It has nothing to do with the presence or absence of a penis. There are more than enough intersex conditions to prove that point.

I am not a woman because I have a vagina. I am a woman because I have a female brain and have always felt female. I've simply rearranged my genitals to correspond to my brain.

I don't understand why this concept, which most children understand, is so hard for so many of you.

July 29, 2007 12:01 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Once again Dr. Beyer relies totally on circular logic that all comes back to being totally vested in Gender Theory...a legitimate but nevertheless radical and unproven concept.

This is an understandable reaction formation.

"There are more than enough intersex conditions to prove that point." Intersex conditions prove absolutely nothing about Gender Theory. Gender Theory tries to explain intersex, not vice-versa.

Once again, circular logic that places the theory as the proof.

You want to claim credibility as a scientist/MD, but your statements validate a willingness to ignore and corrupt the scientific method for your own purposes.

Thus, your feigned mystification as to the relevance of Mengele 'credentials' versus credibility, actions, and viewpoints is tranparent.

"I don't understand why this concept, which most children understand, is so hard for so many of you."

Because children don't know any better. Exactly why education should be factual and balanced.

And exactly why you have refused to support inclusion of any medical warnings from other MDs in the curriculum which might disturb the only narrative you wish them to receive.

You ignore answering because you cannot justify your actions: a direct conflict with your duty as an MD--a professional status you want to exploit but not live up to when too inconvenient.

As the saying goes, "It's not about truth, it's about power." Yup...you're perfect for politics.

July 29, 2007 2:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Reputable scientists don't withhold facts to advance their own position when that may endanger innocents.

You could be talking about reparative or conversion therapists with that statement. Such therapists are not reputable scientists because they "endanger innocents" by failing to warn potential clients (or in the case of minors, the clients' parents) that their therapy fails to change sexual orientation for most people who attempt it. Reparative therapists also fail to warn prospective clients that attempts to alter sexual orientation can cause complications. SUch efforts often increases clients' internalized homophobia, which causes many problems such as depression, anxiety, alcohol and drug abuse, and suicidal feelings. These negative outcomes are often experienced by many patients who attempt change their sexual orientation.

Shidlo and Schroeder (2002) found 88% of gays who attempted reparative therapy failed to change their sexual orientation and only 3% were successful. NARTH's Nicolosi claims a 30% success rate for his reparative therapy patients, which of course means he has a 70% failure rate. Does Nicolosi warn propective clients of either the 70% failure rate of his therapy or the complication rate? Apparently not.

Speaking of NARTH, they sure seems to embrace the "circular logic" of Gender Theory.

...biological influences may indeed influence some people toward homosexuality; recent studies point to prenatal-hormonal influences, especially in men, that result in a low-masculinized brain; also, there may be genetic factors in some people -- both of which would affect gender identity, and therefore sexual orientation.
http://www.narth.com/menus/positionstatements.html

Masculinization of the brain occurs through relatively high levels of androgens, whereas feminization occurs in the relative absence of androgens. Some studies suggest that homosexually oriented men are more likely to show evidence of brain development that is low-masculinized (in effect, relatively female-like).
http://www.narth.com/docs/triplets.html

By the way GIAR, with your penchant for anonymity, you'd be a great bunkermate for the VP IMHO.

July 29, 2007 6:21 PM  
Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

OK -- the Shady Grove physicians were conned into signing that petition which I feel no obligation to support. As for the risk factors to which you allude, again, they are in the unit of STIs, where they should be. And they will again be considered when that unit is up for revision this year.

As for your ignorant statement about gender theory and circular reasoning, the simple fact is that the vast majority of scientists accept the existence of gender identity. I'd like you to point out some people who don't. I do not make a habit of reading gender theory, and I am only referring to articles published in reputable scientific journals such as the New England Journal of Medicine.

Here's a question for you -- how can a child with no pelvis and hence no genitalia have a gender identity?

July 29, 2007 7:29 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

aunt bea--

I never disagreed with the APA that biology may have an influence as one of 3 factors. I specifically used the analagy that 'tallness' contributing to someone being a basketball player is not the same as being 'born' as basketball player. I also did not call Gender Theory circular logic. If you can't keep up, please stay on the sidelines.

Dr. Beyer:

270 other MDs were all conned but not you? My, my, you stand heads above the entire medical community.

No, you are incorrect. The dramtically higher risks associated with anal sex are not specified. Another weak attempt to justify your lack of action.

You apparently do not understand the difference between gender theory and gender identity. You also do not appear to understand how theory fits into the scientific method. This and your sweeping statement that it's just a fact shows that it is not I who is ignorant.

Perhaps you might try actually reading some peer reviewed journals other than NEJM.

July 29, 2007 9:04 PM  
Blogger BlackTsunami said...

TROLL - INTENT:
The general element, that determines whether a malicious user is a troll or not, is the level of indignant emotions present in the person...

(Indignation - annoyance provoked by what is perceived as unfair treatment)

Continuing:
A troll's main goal is usually to arouse anger and frustration among the message board's other participants, and will write whatever it takes to achieve this end. One popular trolling strategy is the practice of Winning by Losing. While the victim is trying to put forward solid and convincing facts to prove his position, the troll's only goal is to infuriate its prey. The troll takes (what it knows to be) a badly flawed, wholly illogical argument, and then vigorously defends it while mocking and insulting its prey. The troll looks like a complete fool, but this is all part of the plan. The victim becomes noticeably angry by trying to repeatedly explain the flaws of the troll's argument. Provoking this anger was the troll's one and only goal from the very beginning.


Though he or she may try to claim otherwise, by the insults the poster has thrown out, that seems to describe give it a rest big time.

July 29, 2007 9:42 PM  
Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

I stand by my statements. That you have the chutzpah to challenge me on gender identity is remarkable.

And, yes, the Shady Grove physicians were conned by Ruth Jacobs. I stand by that, too.

July 29, 2007 10:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You really have to insist that they imagine what its like to be BORN in the wrong body.

Not that that's even a practical suggestion for most heterosexuals, but without that simple yet fundamental paradigm shift, there seems to be no chance of breaking through with the die-hards.

Even if this solidifies their conclusion that we are deluded for being same-gender attracted or trans-gendered, at least it would help them grapple with the magnitude of our conviction about ourselves.

July 31, 2007 3:19 PM  
Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

I do have a number of thought experiments that help men understand gender identity as a brain function rather than as a simple "I look down, see my penis and know I'm a boy" phenomenon.

But it is very hard for someone who has never had an issue with either gender identity or sexual orientation to understand we've always felt that something has been terribly wrong, even when we couldn't adequately express it.

My father used to blow me off when I couldn't express my feelings rationally, because he thought poetry and metaphor were nonsense, and if you could explain something in simple declarative sentences then the problem just didn't exist. He's subsequently learned there are several different kinds of knowing.

July 31, 2007 4:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"My father used to blow me off when I couldn't express my feelings rationally...and if you could explain something in simple declarative sentences then the problem just didn't exist."

Wow Dana you're good. That explains my relationship with my parents to a tee.

I've been depressed since I was 13 (38 Now), yet they continue to blame me for not expressing myself adequately. THEN, when I do explain my problems in coherent detail, they eventually conclude that I'm making excuses. And then of course I feel humiliatingly insulted.

It's like because I'm capable of understanding the hell that I'm going through, I should know better than to be going through it!

And it's not even anything about being gay necessarily, they're just trying to "fix" my happiness (or lack of it).

Thank you for sharing that though, it's revealing, and quite vindicating.

July 31, 2007 6:07 PM  
Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

I'm glad to help!

July 31, 2007 10:46 PM  

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