Monday, June 08, 2009

Two Items on Don't Ask, Don't Tell

Here are two pieces of news that go together.

First, a few days ago Gallup announced results of a survey showing that conservatives are shifting their opinion about gays and lesbians serving in the military.
WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Americans are six percentage points more likely than they were four years ago to favor allowing openly gay men and lesbian women to serve in the military, 69% to 63%. While liberals and Democrats remain the most supportive, the biggest increase in support has been among conservatives and weekly churchgoers -- up 12 and 11 percentage points, respectively. Conservatives Shift in Favor of Openly Gay Service Members

This is a pretty interesting shift. Church-goers and people who describe themselves as conservatives do not tend to approve of same-sex marriages, but they are positive about letting gay people serve in the armed forces.
The finding that majorities of weekly churchgoers (60%), conservatives (58%), and Republicans (58%) now favor what essentially equates to repealing the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy implemented under President Clinton in 1993 is noteworthy for several reasons. First, the data show that these traditionally conservative groups are shifting on this issue, supporting it to a far greater extent than they support legalized gay marriage. Second, it suggests the political playing field may be softer on this issue, and President Barack Obama will be well-positioned to forge ahead with his campaign promise to end the military ban on openly gay service members with some support from more conservative segments of the population. To date, it is estimated that more than 12,500 servicemen and servicewomen have been discharged under the policy, including more than 200 since Obama took office.

Overall, the groups most in favor of allowing openly gay service members to serve in the military continue to be liberals (86%) and Democrats (82%), followed by Americans 18 to 29 (78%) -- whose support registered a nine-point jump in support from 2004.

Yes, the culture has shifted, young adults today have no issue with sexual orientation.

The other news is from the Supreme Court. Interesting how the AP words this.
The Supreme Court on Monday agreed with the Obama administration and refused to review Pentagon policy barring gays and lesbians from serving openly in the military.

The court said it will not hear an appeal from former Army Capt. James Pietrangelo II, who was dismissed under the "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

The federal appeals court in Boston earlier threw out a lawsuit filed by Pietrangelo and 11 other veterans. He was the only member of that group who asked the high court to rule that the Clinton-era policy is unconstitutional. Court rejects challenge to 'don't ask, don't tell'

A lot of people are unhappy with the way the new guy has handled don't ask don't tell. Campaigning, he said he would get rid of the policy. Once in office he said he was thinking of "changing" it, which is not the same as throwing it out, and he hasn't done anything about it. The military is still kicking people out because of their sexual orientation.

Here's a lawyer looking at it positively.
"We don't see that at all as bad news for repeal," said Kevin Nix, spokesman for the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network. "What happened today puts the ball back into the court of Congress and the White House to repeal the law, and that's where we think it should be right now."

Nix said there are no objective studies showing unit cohesion, morale and order are harmed by openly gay people.

"There are people out there and still serving, and the unit is not crumbling beneath their feet," he said, adding that attitudes among troops and society are far different than they were in the 1990s when the policy was instituted.

"Times have changed ... fast forward 16 years," Nix said. "The service members in Iraq and Afghanistan — their attitudes toward gay people are very different than some retired generals in their 50s and 60s who served in the 20th Century. It's a different world."

Yes, it is a different world. We should allow patriotic Americans to serve their country.


Anonymous great balls of lightning said...

"Nix said there are no objective studies showing unit cohesion, morale and order are harmed by openly gay people."

How could there be? Gays are allowed to self-identify and stay in the military.

If Barry changes his mind and starts letting gays flaunt their deviance in military units, then we will the harm to "cohesion, morale and order."

Common sense is it's better to only let gays stay in the military if they keep their sick desires to themselves.

If you're in the bunker, under assault, and the guy next to you is having lurid fantasies about you, it's bound to be a disturbing distaction. Camaraderie is needed not .....

June 08, 2009 6:42 PM  
Anonymous ha-ha said...

that's right

sick desires

June 08, 2009 7:00 PM  
Anonymous PasserBy said...

Lightness, I think you just gave the rationale for keeping women out of the military, not gays. You might want to reconsider.

June 08, 2009 7:16 PM  
Anonymous hydrox said...

point is, the last you need in a foxhole is sexual tension

guys attracted to other guys don't belong there

they belong in a psych ward

June 08, 2009 9:12 PM  
Anonymous PasserBy said...

So let's hear you say it: women should not be allowed in the military. Come on -- say it.

June 08, 2009 9:31 PM  
Anonymous hydrox said...

heterosexuality has its customs and discretions

homosexuality has none

no one needs a gay guy slobbering after all the other guys in wartime

count your blessings and stay safe at home drinking Constant Comment under your lavender quilt

June 08, 2009 9:49 PM  
Anonymous PasserBy said...

Your stereotyping is hilarious and ridiculous, and -- you're not implying that I'm gay, are you? I have neither lavender quilt nor Constant Comment, I'm more of an Early Times guy.

You are making the case for keeping women out of the military but you won't admit it because you know it's a stupid idea. There is sexual attraction everywhere, people learn to interact professionally in spite of it. It's just part of being a grown-up.

June 08, 2009 10:10 PM  
Anonymous lightning bug said...

I'm arguing for segregation by sexual attraction in the military. It should be an option.

There is no need to complicate matters by letting in those who have deviant desires.

There are all kinds of disabilities that cause the military to exclude certain individuals from military sevice.

For many of them, you make accomodation but the goal of the military is protect the country not provide employment.

Nothing wrong with including defective sexual attraction on the list of unnecessary encumbrances.

June 09, 2009 9:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You, like most ego-centered heterosexual males, have this imaginative fantasy that gay men lust after you! What a joke! If I were in a foxhole with you, I would be much more attracted to the trench.
Dream on...and try some of your self-deceptive sexual-attraction on the many women that I know you fantasize about in the privacy of your own room, in front of your computer!!

June 09, 2009 10:42 AM  
Anonymous lightning bug said...

"We should allow patriotic Americans to serve their country."

If gays are so patriotic, why don't they stop trying to cause a bunch of trouble and just contribute where it's appropriate.

Obviously, they want to hang out with a bunch of other guys in an intimate situation but they could serve their country better in support industries.

Every situation doesn't have to seen as an opportunity to indulge their jollies.

June 09, 2009 11:22 AM  
Anonymous Robert said...

Anonymoid expresses the fear that gay men are drooling testosterone-fueled sexual harassers, and that straight men can't handle this. He says nothing about gay women.

His picture should be in the dictionary next to the word "homophobia (fear of queers)".

For some reason, he says that "gays can self-identify and stay in the military".

This is not true of the American armed forces. I will assume it is a typo.

It is true of the Israeli and UK military, among others, however. There is plenty of opportunity for research on this topic, and I would think it has been conducted. Does anyone know where to find it?

Fact is, what Don't Ask Don't Tell and these "Fear the Queers" arguments in support of it underline, more than anyone else, is the ongoing history of bigotry in our military. Someone (Barack) should do something about this.

June 09, 2009 11:26 AM  
Anonymous lightning bug said...

let's not be naive

just like gays like to hang around the gym watching guys work out, they also want to work in close settings with other guys

the military is not just a 9-to-5 job but 24/7 lifestyle

having the ranks honey-combed with a disproportionate bunch of gays, such as has happened at many of our public schools, will suppress recruitment

simply put, few guys want to sign to live with gays

June 09, 2009 11:32 AM  
Anonymous ha-ha said...

that's right

just like the gym

June 09, 2009 12:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"WICHITA, Kan. (June 9) - The family of slain abortion provider George Tiller said Tuesday that his Wichita clinic will be "permanently closed," effective immediately.

In a statement released by Tiller's attorneys, his family said it is ceasing operation of Women's Health Care Services Inc. and any involvement by family members in any other similar clinic."

June 09, 2009 1:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Bug" said:
"having the ranks honey-combed with a disproportionate bunch of gays, such as has happened at many of our public schools, will suppress recruitment"
The only suppression of recruitment would result is when fewer homophobes like you enlist...and, by the way, you are a veteran, aren't you? Or are you one of those homophobes who thinks that gays find you attractive?
"disproportionate bunch of gays"...pray tell, what would that number be? and what is this crap about what has happened at many of our public schools? Would you care to be more specific?...instead of just blowing out your rear end?
Time to leave Troll.

June 09, 2009 3:14 PM  
Anonymous Robert said...

I think the public schools comment was a jibe at me. Either that, or it's self-mocking over-the-top queer-bashing. No one, not even the Peter, could really think things like that. Well, maybe the Peter.

June 09, 2009 3:23 PM  
Anonymous lightning bug said...

do you guys really expect us to believe gays are serving in the military because of patriotism?

do you really expect us to believe they're not just looking for a place to goggle the guys?

they can serve their country better using their talents- fashion, interior design, choreography, et al

stop zeroing in on our enlisted men

June 09, 2009 3:34 PM  
Anonymous ha-ha said...

that's right

don't zero in

June 09, 2009 3:35 PM  
Anonymous fountains of whiz said...

how abut this:

you're on the battlefield with some gay guy

he gets a bullet

he's HIV-pos and his blood splatters on you

don't we owe to our normal service men to protect them from this added danger?

they're risking enough already

June 09, 2009 3:43 PM  
Anonymous David S. Fishback said...

Public policy by murder and intimidation. This is how we could become the Swat Valley.

June 09, 2009 3:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wiz...perhaps you should be much more concerned with the rampant promiscuous sex occuring among the so-called "straight" military personnel. Seems like the latest reports out of the Pentagon are concerned that it is growing out of control.
Secondly...anyone, regardless of whether they are "straight" or gay has to undergo an extensive physical examination, with follow-up exams, to determine the presence of sexually transmitted diseases (such as those so commonly found in the so-called "straight" community). The chances of anyone, having HIV/AIDS, getting shot and spurting blood on YOU are infinitestimal. (Are you currently serving your country in the military?) And you, with your off-the-wall prejudices, are far more dangerous to military cohesion!
If you think that such hyperbole on your part warrants your bigotry, you are worse off that we first thought.
Time to go A.W.O.L., TROLL!

June 09, 2009 3:57 PM  
Anonymous lightning bug said...

"anyone, regardless of whether they are "straight" or gay has to undergo an extensive physical examination"

I'm sure the gays are looking forward to that "extensive physical examination" but it can't happen daily.

When these guys get R & R in Bangkok, who knows what they'll be up to. Especially, when there's no more "don't tell".

Leave well enough alone.

No gays in the military.

Barry, keep on truckin' and keep open gays out of our military ranks.

June 09, 2009 4:04 PM  
Anonymous Robert said...

Anonymous is getting worse.

June 09, 2009 4:45 PM  
Anonymous lightning bug said...


for once, think of the men in uniform rather than yourself

they are in a life and death situation on a regular basis

they need buddies that they can relate to next to them

stay home and have a quiche and listen to a minuet and keep the fires going in the factories

let those equippped to do so fight the battles

it's a win-win for everybody

June 09, 2009 5:45 PM  
Anonymous David S. Fishback said...

"they need buddies that they can relate to next to them"

This is precisely the argument that was made in 1948 when Truman integrated the armed services.

The old saying goes, "There are no atheists in foxholes." I suspect that the same can be said for racists and homophobes.

June 09, 2009 5:51 PM  
Anonymous lightning bug said...

ah, David

always has an insult for minorities

skin color is a physical characteristic

deviant sexual attraction is a behavioral/emotional chararacteristic

the latter can rightly affect the battlefield camaraderie necessary to succeed militarily

June 09, 2009 5:55 PM  
Anonymous ha-ha said...

Yes, there it is. More proof. lightning bug is a despicable moron.

June 09, 2009 6:29 PM  
Anonymous ha-ha said...

the last ha-ha is an TTF imposter

also, has no point or logic

that's when we can tell we've got the best of the argument

when the morons on the TTF side have nothing better to say than "he's a moron"

that's right

nothng better

June 09, 2009 7:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

a few years ago a study was done that showed that the better the coffee in a country, the worst they fared on the battlefield

so, you have the French with their gourmet blends who are disastrous in battle

then there's the Americans who have horrible coffee

the whole gay thing is going to mess that all up

June 09, 2009 7:18 PM  
Anonymous ha-ha said...

No, that ha-ha is the impostor. I am the real Anonymous, laughing at my own jokes.

June 09, 2009 9:43 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So the Imposter Ha-Ha has stolen the identity of the Real Ha-Ha?

June 09, 2009 10:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jim....HELP! These "balls", "Hydrox","Bugs", "Whiz", and "ha ha" trolls (I use the plural because who knows if there is more than one or whether "they" are all the infamous "Anonymous" troll poster)are pirating and sabotaging this venerable site.
They have virtually taken over the entire course of "discussion" and constantly divert topics to their liking...especially when they insult regular readers or disparage and spout their hatred against anybody not of their liking. I do not think they contribute anything positive to the discourse here...and in fact, may cause supporters of this site to give up coming here to discuss rational and important topics.
A word from you?

June 09, 2009 10:11 PM  
Blogger David S. Fishback said...

Lightening bug says:

"deviant sexual attraction is a behavioral/emotional chararacteristic"

One could easily have said the same things about Jews, or Hispanics, or Blacks, or Italians, or Hillbillies, or just about any group.

If every straight person were as unrelentingly homophobic as you, then your argument about gays in the military might have some practical force. Thankfully, our society has moved past that.

June 09, 2009 10:24 PM  
Blogger JimK said...

As long as this blog has existed there have been anonymous trolls coming into our house and pooping on the living room rug. They are rude and prejudiced, and I tend to think they do us a service by showing us that there are really people like that in the world, even in our county. For instance, the way this most recent name-shifting troll talks about gay people as deviants -- do you ever actually hear people talk like that? I don't either, but he comes right here and defines the problem for us. Most of "us" don't usually get to see this pernicious attitude up close and see how a person like this "reasons."

On the other hand, the obnoxiousness is hard to take, especially where there are serious issues to discuss. Years ago I posted a piece that it has been handy to link to occasionally, called Morons' Comments Will Be Deleted, and over the years I have deleted quite a number of moronic comments. I don't delete them for disagreeing with me or us, but for being stupid. This Anon has bumped up against the line a lot of times, and I agree with you that it has gotten to a point where you can't talk because of all the background noise.

Once or twice I have banned commenters for being consistently moronic. I hate to do that, I much prefer to let the group self-organize, but this is not a democracy and I don't have to put up with offensiveness, as determined by myself. It is very easy for me to put an IP number into a list and a computer is banned from commenting here or using the TTF site at all.

I am going to start pruning the comments a little bit. The ha-ha stuff is stupid and a waste of bandwidth and readers' times. Anon, you have made your point, gay people are deviants, they are promiscuous, only straight people can have real marriages and real families, most of the world's problems are the fault of gay people, etcetera, your position is well enough documented here. Now if you want to participate here I need you to tone it down and to include a fact or a link to something relevant in your comments. If I delete a comment I will leave a little tag that says "Comment deleted by administrator" or whatever, so people know what happened. You will complain that I delete anything I disagree with, people will laugh at you, we've gone through it before. If you think before you comment and take a breath in-between I might not have to delete anything at all.


June 09, 2009 11:07 PM  
Anonymous the bug said...

"One could easily have said the same things about Jews, or Hispanics, or Blacks, or Italians, or Hillbillies, or just about any group."

this is not true, David

June 09, 2009 11:54 PM  
Anonymous the bug said...

"this venerable site"

Webster on venerable:

"made sacred especially by religious or historical association"

June 09, 2009 11:58 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Webster on venerable:

"made sacred especially by religious or historical association"

Merriam-Webster on venerable:


3 a: calling forth respect through age, character, and attainments

broadly: conveying an impression of aged goodness and benevolence


Text: 1: deserving honor and respect especially by reason of age

Synonyms: hallowed, revered, reverend, venerated

Related Words: honorable, reputable, respectable; honored, respected, reverenced; admirable, estimable, redoubtable; good, moral, righteous

June 10, 2009 6:14 AM  
Blogger Unknown said...

Sociopathanon: “no one needs a gay guy slobbering after all the other guys in wartime

they can serve their country better using their talents- fashion, interior design, choreography, et al”

They should be banned from those things too.

No one wants their wife wearing fashion that was designed by a gay man.
No one wants their wife‘s hair styled by a gay man.
No one wants interior design improvements that came from the mind of a gay man, ie; porn wallpaper and phallic furniture.
No one wants to see a play or musical or movie with a gay man in it or associated with it.
Just like no one want’s to exercise at a gym where a gay man is an employee or member.

I can’t tell you how many husbands I know who've insisted that their wives shave their heads once they found out that a gay man styled it. Or made them burn their clothes and walk naked through a car wash once they found out that their clothing was designed by a gay man. Or set fire to a video store with movies written, directed by, or starring a gay man. Or smashed a radio when a gay man’s song was playing on it. Or heckled a gay man at the theater -- on stage, on screen , or in the audience.

It just goes to show how disruptive gay men are to the very fabric of society.

Much better for thousands to burn to death in another terrorist attack than to utilize the talents of a gay Arabic linguist who could have prevented it.

June 10, 2009 6:37 AM  
Anonymous greased lightning said...

I don't think gays have the linguistics field tied up, improv.

Homosexuals can do a lot of things but military service is something they're not suited for just like people with other types of disability aren't always suited for military service.

People should be in their field of giftedness. The type of relationships necessary for combat duty is something that homosexuality doesn't lend itself to.

Hey, how about that Democratic primary in Virginia? It's either going to be a blue dog Dem or a Republican for governor.

That Obama liberal surge didn't last long, did it?

June 10, 2009 9:01 AM  
Anonymous ho-ho said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

June 10, 2009 9:04 AM  
Anonymous greased lightning said...

"For instance, the way this most recent name-shifting troll talks about gay people as deviants -- do you ever actually hear people talk like that?"

Actually, I've read several uses of the term "deviant" in the media over the last few days in connection with the circumstances surrounding the death of David Carradine.

Don't know what the investigation there will conclude but the term is still in use. It's not an anachronism as Jim seems to imply.

June 10, 2009 9:08 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Actually, I've read several uses of the term "deviant" in the media over the last few days in connection with the circumstances surrounding the death of David Carradine."

Carradine was a heterosexual serial monogamist. He was married and divorced five times, had seven children by at least four different women, and he died giving himself sexual pleasure. He was one heterosexual deviant among millions.

June 10, 2009 9:35 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Greasy Lightning"
You said: "Homosexuals can do a lot of things but military service is something they're not suited for just like people with other types of disability."
So you are going to ignore or discount the services provided by thousands of GLBT who have been in the military since time immemorial?
The honorable record of citations, decorations, and commendations resulting from...what?...diddling around in the trenches with heterosexual men who have an insane and distorted concept of their own sexual attractiveness?
Disability? Please offer proof of that contention.
You really are an ignorant and sick puppy!!

June 10, 2009 9:55 AM  
Anonymous greased lightning said...

a lot of the problems go away if they just keep it to themselves, Dio

follow along

June 10, 2009 9:57 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I might suggest that you follow your own advice: "a lot of the problems go away if they just keep it to themselves". How about keeping your own ignorant, bigoted, and hateful remarks to yourself?? I suspect a lot of the "problems" resulting from your very presence in this blog would "go away".

June 10, 2009 10:05 AM  
Anonymous Aunt Bea said...

Greasy Anon is a recurring problem who just can't keep his insults about LGBT people to himself. Insulting God's LGBT human creations is what Greasy lives for.

Does your boss know how many hours he pays you to post your vile insults on this blog? Is your boss aware of your compulsive hatred for gay and transgender people? What do you do when you have to work with a gay or transgender client? Do you insult them to their face or are you only brave enough to do so Anonymously here day after day?

It takes a small man to make himself feel big by putting minorities down, anonymously.

Take your own advice, Greasy, and "keep it to yourself."

June 10, 2009 10:18 AM  
Anonymous greased lightning said...

diversity means different people have different characteristics and are suited for different roles

that's not an insult, just a fact

June 10, 2009 10:22 AM  
Blogger Unknown said...

“I don't think gays have the linguistics field tied up, improv.”

Irrelevant. It only takes one.

“a lot of the problems go away if they just keep it to themselves”

It must be hard for you to be continually reminded to choose to think about man on man sex.

“People should be in their field of giftedness.”

Then shouldn’t you be under a bridge somewhere eating children?

June 10, 2009 10:22 AM  
Anonymous Aunt Bea said...

diversity means different people have different characteristics and are suited for different roles

Oh, thanks for explaining that to Vigilance readers. People with characteristics of obsessive hatred combined with cowardice and arrogance are perfectly suited to being Internet trolls.

that's not an insult, just a fact

June 10, 2009 12:00 PM  
Anonymous greased lightning said...

I think Bea's response here typifies the gay advocacy movement.

June 10, 2009 2:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

We've learned "biblically correct" Carrie Prejean is officially out as Miss California USA because she doesn't play well with others.

Sources connected with the pageant tell us even Donald Trump has now had it with Carrie, because she's violating her contract by not getting clearance to do her extracurricular stuff.

We're also told Carrie has been a no-show for appearances she was supposed to make for the pageant organization.

The firing, we're told, is strictly based on Carrie breaching her contract. It's not based on her political and moral views.

Carrie is getting her walking papers this afternoon.

The new Miss California USA will be Miss Malibu Tami Farrell.

June 10, 2009 3:27 PM  
Anonymous Aunt Bea said...

I think this entire thread of Wyatt morphing from "great balls of lightning" to "ha-ha" to "hydrox" to "lightning bug" to "fountains of whiz" to "the bug" to "greased lightning" and back and forth among them for two days illustrates the characteristics of homophobes. Thanks for the demonstration of how special you think you are, as always.

Jim's right. If Wyatt didn't post his comments, nobody would believe how deranged some people are.

The hateful nuts are really coming out of the woodwork now. Pro-life supremacist Scott Roeder murdered a medical doctor who has saved thousands of women's lives last week and just a few hours ago we had white supremacist James Von Brunn named as a possible suspect in the shooting of a security guard at the Holocaust Museum shooting today.

You know you don't have to shoot if you disagree with someone. Rational discussions are possible, but they take some effort. Try making the effort to be rational with all that spare time you have at work, Wyatt.

June 10, 2009 3:47 PM  
Blogger Priya Lynn said...

Bad anonymous has made it abundantly clear here that he opposes gays in the military. Yet in a previous thread

he dishonestly led us to believe the opposite because David Fishback had trapped him in the destructiveness of his bigotry. David told the following story:

"Here is the story on LTC Fehrenbach, who is being thrown out of the Air Force due to Don't Ask, Don't Tell:

"On September 11th, Lieutenant Colonel Fehrenbach was picked to be part of the initial alert crew, immediately following the 9/11 attacks. The following year, in 2002, he deployed to Kuwait, where he flew combat missions over Afghanistan, attacking Taliban and al Qaeda targets. After the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003, Lieutenant Colonel Fehrenbach deployed there, flying combat missions in support of Operation: Iraqi Freedom.

"Over the span of his career, he has flown 88 combat missions, including missions that were the longest combat sorties n the history of his squadron. He logged more than 2,000 flying hours, nearly 1,500 fighter hours, 400 combat hours.

"Lieutenant Colonel Fehrenbach is also highly decorated. He‘s received nine Air Medals including one for heroism. After 18 years of active duty in the Air Force, this experienced, decorated fighter pilot says he is ready and willing to deploy again, he‘s ready to do whatever his country and the United States Air Force ask of him."

For the rest of the story, see

Anonymous, I would be interested in hearing why you believe that our national defense is enhanced, rather than damaged, by the discharge of LTC Fehrenbach and so many like him."

Bad anonymous replied "Did I say that, David?".

Bad anonymous realized that he couldn't refute this example of DADT being a bad policy so he lied and pretended he didn't support it. Now the truth comes out (not that any of us are surprised), bad anonymous supports DADT and he knows he could never justify how the U.S. "national defense is enhanced, rather than damaged, by the discharge of LTC Fehrenbach and so many like him.".

Bad anonymous, what a low life.

June 10, 2009 7:44 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

pretty weak, Priya

at that point, I simply wasn't saying

just because I didn't feel like arguing about it at that point doesn't mean anything

June 10, 2009 11:20 PM  

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