Thursday, July 01, 2010

When Horrible Impossibilities Seem Certain to Happen

When a choice is being considered, it is useful to think of the range of possible consequences that might follow from it. One heuristic strategy is to examine the most probable consequences; if the most probable consequences are not good, then reject the choice. If the most probable consequences are all right, then you consider what else might happen, especially looking for outcomes that would be highly negative. Almost any choice has the potential to backfire on you, you should be aware of how that might happen.

I don't want to get too technical here, but one kind of rational choice model would have you take the product of each outcome's value (negative or positive) times its probability, sum them up, and if the sum is positive you accept the choice, otherwise reject it.

Decision theorists have identified all kinds of ways that people distort this rational process. We overestimate the probabilities of vivid things and things that we have seen or thought about recently, for instance.

There is a phenomenon we have dealt with fairly often here in Montgomery County, both in evaluating the sex-ed curriculum and in considering the law prohibiting discrimination against transgender people. In considering a decision, people will identify the very most negative outcome possible, and act as if that outcome is certain to happen. There is another example in the news this week.

So -- we were told that teaching about sexual orientation will directly result in students getting AIDS. People submitted legal court documents saying the school district would be liable when that happens, and the county would go bankrupt when the lawsuits hit. If county residents can't discriminate against their transgender neighbors, we were told, pedophiles and predators will lurk in women's shower-rooms, molesting our innocent wives and daughters.

See how that works? These outcomes are so improbable as to be impossible, yet some people focus on them, acting as if they are sure to happen. A county Republican leader told the County Council that the new gender-identity nondiscrimination law was going to result in "little girls ... showing up dead all over the county because of freaks of nature." That outcome was impossible: he was sure it was going to happen.

I was trying to think of a name for this phenomenon, but haven't come up with anything I'm happy with.

There was another example this week. Maybe you saw the news about the Massachusetts school district that was going to provide free condoms to students. Here's Fox News:
When the school board in Provincetown, Mass., voted unanimously on June 8 to provide free condoms to all students in the district without parental notification, no one in the audience objected.

In fact, no one thought much about it.

The school’s health advisory committee, relying on respected studies, worried that children were becoming sexually active at ever younger ages, and it believed protection was the best policy. The proposal had been on the agenda for weeks, and it had been discussed in open session and on local cable channels.

No one objected. In fact, no one thought much of it, says Beth Singer, the school superintendent.

Even after passage, she said, she had only one phone call -- from a parent who wanted to know when it would go into effect so she could talk to her kids about it.

But then on Thursday, the world took notice.

A FOX station in Boston ran a story Wednesday night titled “Condoms at School,” and that's when Singer said everything changed.

By 2 in the morning, the Massachusetts Family Institute hastily issued a statement saying: "Making condoms available to first graders bullies parents to submit to an agenda that promotes sexual promiscuity to innocent children at their most vulnerable age.

"The Provincetown school committee's decision to force this radical and absurd policy demonstrates the lengths to which some will go to emasculate parents' rights and undermine the notion of encouraging children to delay sexual activity.”

Kris Mineau, the Institute's president, called the school board's policy “absurd” and suggested parents file suit to overturn the policy.

Stories in the Boston morning papers and even national media outlets screamed that first graders were going to get condoms on Cape Cod, and calls from as far away as California began pouring in in opposition to the policy, which requires students to request the condoms from the school nurse, who will also provide counseling and information on birth control, including abstinence. The nurse can also deny condoms to students for many reasons, including age. Condoms for First Graders? School Board's Decision Sparks Firestorm in Massachusetts

For some reason, every telling of this news story focused on the idea of first grade students getting condoms. The condoms were being made available to all students, K through 12 I presume. It's not a bad idea, of course, there are high school students and even seventh and eight grade kids having sex, I don't like it any more than you do but it happens. If they go to the nurse's office and ask for a condom they might get one, plus a lecture about birth control, including abstinence, unless the nurse decides not to give them one.

The obvious fact is, this was for the older students. They don't ask their parents' permission when they decide to have sex, and if they have to ask their parents for a condom they simply won't get one. It's really common sense. If they're having sex, it is better to be protected from infection and pregnancy, and no kid living at home is going to ask their parents for condoms. At least no kid I ever heard of.

But what is the bottom end of the age range? That is hard to say. High school, okay, a lot of people lose their virginity in high school, it would be reasonable to offer them protection. Middle school? The question is not how long do we wish they'd wait, the question is when are they starting to have sex, in reality, and some middle school students will be sexually active, that's just a fact.

It is not necessary to set an arbitrary youngest age for condom distribution, if a kid doesn't need one he won't ask for one. First graders don't need condoms and won't ask for them, so there is no reason to say they can't have them. It just wouldn't occur to a first-grader to ask the nurse for a condom. A sixth grader? Sadly, maybe. This isn't a license to have sex, it's something for the safety of those young people who are doing it.

Every news story focused on the first-graders. Everybody agrees, it would be shocking if the schools were helping six year old children protect themselves and their partners during sexual intercourse, it would be terrible. Nobody wants the schools to give condoms to first graders, not even liberals, believe it or not.

How many first graders even know what a condom is? Oh, there might be a dare by an older sibling, there might even be a hope to acquire materials for the coolest water balloon ever. But realistically, the schools were not going to give condoms to first graders. They "could" have done it, in the sense that you "could" jump off a cliff if you wanted, but they weren't going to.

Why would people think of the worst possible scenario, even though its probability approximates zero, and act as if this scenario is a certainty? I saw CNN talking about the schools giving condoms to first-graders, fer cryin out loud. Why would anyone think that way?

Today we have a new AP story. Moronic thinking prevails again:
The superintendent of a Massachusetts school district is apologizing to parents for what she calls a misunderstanding over a condom availability policy.

Superintendent Beth Singer said in the letter e-mailed Tuesday that the district will clarify that elementary school-age students won't be able to get a condom if they request one from the school nurse.

The Cape Cod Times reports that she wrote it became necessary to revise the wording after it was "so badly understood and misrepresented by the media."

The policy is set to take effect in the fall and appeared to set no minimum age for students to receive condoms without parental consent. The policy drew criticism from conservative groups as well as Democratic Gov. Deval (deh-VAHL') Patrick. No condoms for grade schoolers, Mass. schools say

There should be a name for the cognitive strategy of thinking of some incredibly unlikely consequence, inventing stories about how that outcome can become a certainty, and then asserting that those stories are true.

29 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

"is not necessary to set an arbitrary youngest age for condom distribution, if a kid doesn't need one he won't ask for one. First graders don't need condoms and won't ask for them, so there is no reason to say they can't have them."

bs, they will ask for them. they make great water balloons.

July 01, 2010 2:12 PM  
Anonymous Aunt Bea said...

There should be a name for the cognitive strategy of thinking of some incredibly unlikely consequence, inventing stories about how that outcome can become a certainty, and then asserting that those stories are true.

I suggest "faux fair and balanced thinking" for the name.

July 02, 2010 10:44 AM  
Anonymous Aunt Bea said...

Or maybe "Group Stink"!

July 02, 2010 10:59 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

jim.
how would you suggest the school nurse react if droves of first graders or third graders or seventh graders start showing up to ask for condomns and the school now has to deal with condoms which have been made into water balloons all over the parking lot ?

seriously, because I have a son who has purchased condoms at the seven eleven because he couldn't purchase water balloons (none in stock). with his friends, as a big old joke. And then had a water balloon fight using said condoms in the upstairs of my mom's house. Not happy. but, boys will be boys.

so having the school nurse distribute condoms to elementary schoolers ? without parental consent ?

really dumb. Is that a horrible consequence ? well only for the tax payers in RI who now get to fund not only the condoms, but the clean up effort.

It will be become a big joke. and you will expose all the first graders to what condoms are really for in the process of the huge free water ballon giveaway.

I mean seriously. don't you bother to think these things through ?

July 02, 2010 4:26 PM  
Anonymous Robert said...

I can imagine high school students (especially freshman boys) asking for condoms and making water balloons out of them.

So what? Feeling more comfortable with condoms, unwrapping them, handling them, even playing with them, will undoubtedly make them more likely to use them when the time comes.

The cretins on the religious right make reasonable discussion impossible, just by making so much noise that reasonable people can't hear one another.

July 02, 2010 5:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

really robert, because the group of boys I was talking about that JUST DID THIS EXACT THING were rising freshman.

they are ALL virgins and they been in catholic schools. they were on a graduation trip at my mom's house at the beach.

So they were being immature ?

Yes. I would prefer them thinking of condoms as water balloons then purchasing them for their true intent.

and if the elementary school sixth graders are getting free condoms from the nurse for water ballons, you can be sure the first graders are going to be exposed.

and for those of us that would prefer our kids WEREN't ENGAGING SEX OR HANDLING CONDOMS SO THEY CAN BE COMFORTABLE WITH THEM WHEN THE INEVITABLE TIME COMES (complete with the STDs that goes with it)...

this is a big problem.

we don't want first graders handling condoms for any reason. because we don't want to explain sex to our six year olds (or anal sex for that matter).

what about that is hard to understand ??????

GEEZ.

Is that the religous right ? NO, goofball, that is just common sense. Most parents would like to keep the age they explain the birds and the bees to their kids to until at least after age 9 or 10.... find my any study that says otherwise.

July 02, 2010 6:02 PM  
Blogger JimK said...

how would you suggest the school nurse react if droves of first graders or third graders or seventh graders start showing up to ask for condomns and the school now has to deal with condoms which have been made into water balloons all over the parking lot ?

Anon, the nurse does not have to give anyone a condom. If a first grader wants one for a water balloon she will just say no.

BTW, condoms do make excellent water balloons. In order to prevent the scandalous leakage of knowledge to a child, a parent could buy a pack of unlubricated rubber condoms, unwrap them, and tell their kid they were "special" water balloons. Man, you put that over the faucet and it will fill up too big to hold! (Of course, not this weekend, not in Montgomery County, under water restriction.)

Oh, and BTW, this is a perfect example of the kind of thing I wrote about in this post. A school is going to provide condoms so students can practice safer sex, and before you know it, Anon is wondering what the schools are going to do about all the water balloons all over the parking lot, as if that impossible outcome is a certainty. Thank you for demonstrating, Anon.

So what are we going to call that phenomenon?

JimK

July 02, 2010 7:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

oh for goodness sake Jim.
It is not an impossible outcome.
It is practically a certainty (sp).

What do you think the school nurse is going to do ? start quizzing the kids on why they want the condoms ?

she probably is prohibited from doing so. So of course we will end up with water ballon condom fights. for goodness sake, weren't you ever 12 years old (Or is that also an impossible outcome ?). did you ever take a condom and make it into a water ballon ? I have now had two of my three kids do just that... and I can't say for certain that the third did not.

So, if they are handing them out in the school office, at least one kid is going to get one an make it into a water ballon (my son certainly would, he would think it funny).

And once one kid does it the rest will follow. A horrible impossibility ? No a certain occurence.

Robert even seems to think so.

July 02, 2010 8:20 PM  
Blogger JimK said...

What do you think the school nurse is going to do ? start quizzing the kids on why they want the condoms ?

Yes, of course, that's the whole point. She doesn't have to give them anything, and she is authorized to counsel them on abstinence and STDs. She's going to say, "What do you want it for?" And if they explain (I am assuming it's a boy) that there is a girl they like and things are getting, uh, you know, then she can provide a condom and talk to them about the risks of sex and explain the benefits of abstinence. No kid's going to go through that just for the coolest water balloon.

The parking lot is not going to be littered with condoms that first graders got from the school nurse to use as water balloons. The fact that you are saying this confirms my point in this post.

JimK

July 02, 2010 8:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

news flash :

"even liberal journalists think Obama is incompetent".

Just ran into one at the grocery store parking lot, who was examining the bumper stickers on my car "how's that hope and change working for you ?"; "socialist YES HE IS"; and "Bankrupting the country, one unread bill after the other".....

we had a nice discussion. He thought socialist was a bit strong, I disagreed and explained why. I opened with I now understand how badly my sister hated Bush.

He leans liberal but finds Obama incompetent. Bush was a leader but with bad advice on Irag. We both agreed Clinton was for the most part, an okay president - except for the Lewinsky thing. Mainly because he didn't attempt anything after the disastrous hillary care. And Reagan was a competent bright president (he said this not me). He thinks the disclose act is a disaster.

bottom line - even some liberals are turning against obama. Maybe there is hope for this country after all.

July 02, 2010 8:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

so now you have some school nurse imposing her views on the kid at all grade levels w/o parental consent.

Still not okay with it Jim.

Not okay with them being blindly handed out and not okay with the school nurse having a non parental consent lecture on sex. It will come down to the views of the nurse. At the Catholic schools, they simply call the parents every time a kid shows up. I used to get calls all the time saying "well, you son is here again saying he bumped his head but I think he just want the ice pack because it's hot outside" (because the nurse has seen him disassemble the ice pack and distribute the ice to his buddies as soon as he gets outside) because they had to call you every time they showed up. Or your (hypchondriac) daughter's here (again) saying her stomach hurts (because she wants out of class) but she isn't running a fever and she seems fine.... Not necessarily a bad thing. Parents being involved is not a bad thing at all Jim.

We know our kids and it's our job to parent them.

Tell the nurse how we would like it handled... send her back to class, (after talking to her) she is faking. They are my kids after all. The Catholic schools realize that educating them and getting them to behave is a partnership. That's the way it should be.

The schools work with the parents to keep the kids in line. Period. It is the parent's decision and responsiblity to keep them in line and to discipline them. It is a team effort, with the parents leading.

What about that it so hard to understand ?

We don't want our authority undermined. Period.

They are OUR KIDS. They don't belong to the state.

July 02, 2010 8:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey the ice pack thing...
He was doing that at age 7, second grade.

So would he go through the "oh I like this girl thing" to get a condom water ballon...

You know, I hate to say it, but I think he would.

July 02, 2010 9:08 PM  
Blogger JimK said...

They are OUR KIDS. They don't belong to the state.

You should not send them to a school if you don't trust the school. School nurses see all kinds of stuff, they're not stupid. What happens when a kid requests a condom depends on the nurse's judgment. If you don't trust her, there are private schools, there is home schooling, you seem like an excellent candidate for those alternatives.

Not okay with them being blindly handed out ...

They are not going to be blindly handed out, the nurse will decide if you get one or not.

JimK

July 02, 2010 9:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

you are putting a decision that you typically require parental consent in the hands of a school nurse that you don't know, and may or may not agree with your beliefs on how the situation should be handled.

Most states have parental consent laws on any discussion about sex. this condom distribution law directly contradicts the "parental consent laws", because it clearly requires a discussion about sex.

so you either break the parental consent laws (not okay) or you blindly distribute them (also not okay).

why don't you get that Jim ?

and my kids ARE in private schools. And I am not happy about the cost... , because in VA my taxes would be lower AND I would have far more trust in the public school system to defer to parents rights. Obviously time to move, which is a big old pain.

July 02, 2010 10:01 PM  
Blogger JimK said...

You have said several things here indicating that you consider your children to be your property. I don't relate to that at all. I cannot see raising my children to live in a world where I control all the information they are exposed to, and I dread to think what kind of adults that would produce.

But it's your call, if you want to raise them that way you certainly have the right. You will find, though, that other people do not want the schools to take your perspective, and I'm afraid the solution will be home-school or maybe hire a tutor who you can micro-manage.

JimK

July 02, 2010 10:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jim.
Charter schools would be a solution as well. Then my tax dollars could pay for schools I was comfortable with my kids attending. As it is, I get to pay twice. Once for the liberal indoctrination agenda at the public schools and again for the schools my kids attend. I would rather pay for schools where I am confident my kids won't be exposed to clear liberal bias (the OBAMA songs) without my approval.

I have no problem with them being taught GENERAL govt principles.. like, let's say, the pledge of allegiance ?

Why do you believe that I should fund schools where you believe my children should be handed condoms (and an explanation about what condomns are) at age 6 ? Why should I be expected to fund this ? Why shouldn't I be able to guide their development ?

They are my kids. I didn't have them to give them to the state, and clearly, hopefully, they eventually will support themselves. But I get to indoctrinate them with my beliefs, just as you get to indoctrinate your kids with your beliefs, and our jointly funded school system should try to stay as impartial as possible in this matter. Which is why IT SHOULDN"T be teaching views on homosexuality or politics in a biased manner. Since those subjects are SO controversial, perhaps they should just stick to the basics. I view the basics as the consitution, but perhaps you view teaching the constitution as biased in a Republican fashion ?




Why do you think it is terrible if my kid shows up at the school nurse that the nurse she (or he) gives me a call ?

Why do you think it is terrible if the school is going to talk to my kids about sex if they give me a call ?

I am not trying to limit all perspectives they are exposed to. I am just trying to preserve some innocence.

At least for a little while. They don't need to know about sex at age 6, or even age 10. They really don't.

Why should they ?

If we all strive to perserve their innocence, rather than forcing the knowledge of the most "educated" or corrupted child on the masses, perhaps the incidence of middle school kids having sex in the classroom might decrease ?

Did you ever think that perhaps 8th graders making water ballons out of condoms (as the obvious use for them) was not a bad thing ?

Maybe that's a good thing !

July 02, 2010 11:07 PM  
Blogger JimK said...

Why do you think it is terrible if the school is going to talk to my kids about sex if they give me a call ?

That's the way you manage your property, you want to know everything that happens. Most people send their kids to school and let the school educate them. When my kids brought home information that was inaccurate or opinions I disagreed with, we talked. They grew up understanding that people have differing perspectives and realized you have to learn to think for yourself, to evaluate statements and decide what makes sense to you. They also learned the value of facts. My kids don't always agree with me but they can hold their own in a discussion, they can support their beliefs and that's better than agreeing with me.

So in response to your question, I don't see a problem with the school giving students information and advice without parental censorship. The school district hires professionals and maintains a high standard, and I trust them.

JimK

July 02, 2010 11:31 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Really.
Like teaching them their "gender identity is their inner sense of whether they are male or female" or that "sexual orientation is innate" (despite all evidence to the contrary).


I don't trust the school district. And my college age daughter, quite headstrong (no idea where she gets that from) can argue with the best of them. And we do frequently disagree... who has a teenager that doesn't disagree with them for pete's sake.

She is on the dean's list and headed to law school, 3.9 average.

and is a solid conservative across the board.

do we disagree ? sure. on lots and lots of things.

I will not blindly accept that any school district has the right to tell my kid whatever it would like about any subject. the school district has a legal requirement to stay impartial on politics and to NOT tread on a parent's right to consent on matters involving underage sex education. I believe that is a reasonable restriction, and not done without considerable thought by the legislature. And I resent your implication that because I WOULD LIKE TO STICK WITH THE CURRENT LAW that somehow that makes me some sort of over controlling parent (which I probably am, but my kids are turning out JUST FINE and that doesn't imply that every parent who believes in parental consent is also an overcontrolling parent).

July 02, 2010 11:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

and I am not sure that being an "over controlling parent" in this environment is a bad thing.

It is probably a GOOD thing, and the only reasonable response to our screwed up society.

whatever jim, I am going to sleep.
we can continue this in the am

July 03, 2010 12:07 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh my goodness.

I can't believe I forgot this.

Or like reading "what is anal sex" to a class of 10 YEAR OLDS.

which was the answer I received in the parents meeting prior to the sex ed class at NCC for 10 year olds when I asked if they would read "ANY" question a kid wrote down, ANY question, regardless of what the question was.

That is what sealed it for me in taking the kids out of public school

THAT CRAZY AND RIDICULOUS REPONSE.

do you trust them ?

do you want your kids hearing " one of our classmates had asked " what is anal sex" I can't answer that question but would suggest you ask you parent or I will address if after class"


You would be okay with that Jim ?

That is TRUST that the school system will act in a reasonable manner ?

that was what the lady who was going to be teaching the COED GRAPHIC SEX ED class to 10 YEAR OLDS (and 9 year olds) AT NCC told the parents that pre sex ed class.

That was the compelling event for me. that was when I moved both of them back to private Catholic school....

that EXACT ISSUE.

LACK OF REASON.

so you go ahead and trust the public schools. I sure don't.

July 03, 2010 12:18 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

congress "deemed as passed" the budget. unreal
truly unreal
let's avoid the discussion on the budget by tacking it onto another bill.

How in the %%*)^&^%*&)()_ do you support this Jim ????

HOW ?

Please HOW ?
Please HOW ?
they are bankrupting our country and YOU voted them in ???

and you are still supporting them ???
REALLY ?
REALLY ?
REALLY ?


KISS YOU KIDS IN THE MORNING AND SAY THAT AGAIN.

I AM SUPPORTING THIS CONGRESS THAT IS BANKRUPTING MY COUNTRY.

SORRY KIDS, YOU WILL HAVE TO PICK UP THE BILL.

HOW IN THE HELL DO YOU LOOK AT YOURSELF IN THE MIRROR ?

REALLY ?
I MEAN REALLY ?

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=37893

COWARDS.

DAMN COWARDS.


I thought more of you Jim.

How do you justify supporting this ?

I mean really ?

HOW ?

July 03, 2010 1:57 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

HORRIFIC IMPOSSIBLITIES ????
Welcome to YOUR DEMOCRATIC WORLD JIM ????

welcome to your world...

July 1: NEVER BEFORE in history, since the creation of the Congressional budget process, has the House failed to pass a budget and failed to propose a budget – then deemed the non-existent budget as passed as a means to avoid a direct, recorded vote on a budget.

The Democrats in Congress now plan to spend up to $1.1 Trillion dollars of taxpayer money that was NOT voted on and NOT approved.

Click HERE

We are completely outside the boundaries of a Constitutional government now… welcome to the Democrat’s Dictatorship.

UNREAL COMPLETELY UNREAL.
OUTSIDE OF ANYTHING IN THE CONSTITUTION AND ANYTHING LEGAL.

BUT THAT'S NEVER STOPPED THEM BEFORE.

WHY I AM SHOCKED ?

THEY ARE DICTATORS ?

I SHOULDN'T BE SHOCKED SHOULD I ?
I should just be liquidating my assets and preparing to move to another country, that's all.

UNREAL. truly and completely UNREAL.

July 03, 2010 2:20 AM  
Blogger JimK said...

Wow. I went to bed last night and look what I missed.

Anon, it's easy. The school district tries to adhere to certain standards, but you have your own "unique" criteria, which they will never meet, since 1.they are incoherent and contradicted by scientific knowledge and 2.the majority of Montgomery County citizens find your beliefs reprehensible. The solution is clear: you should find alternative education for your children.

You seem to want the state to support your choice in that financially, but I'm afraid that's not going to happen. Just like the speed limits on public roads may be too low for someone with a Lamborghini, the educational standards in public schools are determined for normal people with normal objectives.

Because your needs are exceptional, the responsibility of meeting them will be yours. Taxpayers are not going to agree to pay for an educational system that teaches that sexual orientation is learned, for instance, but if you believe that to be the case you can probably arrange for an education for your own children that opposes scientific knowledge. The public institution is designed for the majority, obviously it will not meet your needs. Luckily you are free to choose an alternative, though, I'm sorry to say, not at taxpayers' expense.

JimK

July 03, 2010 11:13 AM  
Anonymous Derrick said...

I think this CNN (and TIME) blog writer pretty much sums up why Christians like AnonBigot are jerks online:

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/06/29/my-take-why-christians-are-jerks-online/?hpt=Sbin

July 03, 2010 3:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Anonymous"
It has become perfectly clear that you do not have any confidence that teaching your own children whatever values you want them to have or any assurance that their values can stand up to the values of others with whom they come into contact on a daily basis or have been taught to distrust. If you did a good job of that, they would be able to attend a public school and be able to adhere to the values you have taught them. If they "cave in" to the state's values (arrived at by democratic consensus, btw) whose fault is that? I place the blame on you.

What on earth are they going to do when they get "out in the world" where the kind of thought-control you advocate is not the standard of society? Who do you intend to blame when they suddenly discover that they have to think for themselves, often arriving at conclusions at variance with those you "taught" them?

This is the precise the problem we face in American society today...too many people who cannot think and reason adequatly and will not accept values different from theirs, instead, choosing to denigrate and dehumanize those who differ from them.

In case you haven't noticed, we have far more serious problems to deal with today than the remote possibility of some children making balloons out of condoms and dropping them in a school parking lot (not likely to happen). Try focusing on something that can improve the lives of humankind instead of pushing a bogus solution for a bogus problem.
RT

July 03, 2010 5:14 PM  
Anonymous Robert said...

I bet anonymous would be shocked by what kids at Catholic schools 'teach' one another.

July 04, 2010 7:34 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Anon, it's easy. The school district tries to adhere to certain standards, but you have your own "unique" criteria, which they will never meet, since 1.they are incoherent and contradicted by scientific knowledge and 2.the majority of Montgomery County citizens find your beliefs reprehensible."

Anon was disagreeing with condom distribution to elementary school children.

That's not "incoherent" or contradicted by any "scientific knowledge" and few MC residents would disagree with anon.

You may notice MC doesn't distribute condoms to elementary school children. MC parents wouldn't stand for it.

Anon's views are not "unique".

"Taxpayers are not going to agree to pay for an educational system that teaches that sexual orientation is learned,"

No one has suggested that. We should pay for one that tells the truth- that science hasn't reached a conclusion on how sexual PREFERENCE develops.

"What on earth are they going to do when they get "out in the world" where the kind of thought-control you advocate is not the standard of society? Who do you intend to blame when they suddenly discover that they have to think for themselves, often arriving at conclusions at variance with those you "taught" them?"

They'll apply the values they've been taught, like previous generations. Raising kids without values doesn't produce thinking citizens, it produces citizens unable to cope with the world around them. Not only is teaching values not "thought control", it's how everyone raises their kids. You are simply implying rhetoric to attack a value system different than your own.

"This is the precise the problem we face in American society today...too many people who cannot think and reason adequatly and will not accept values different from theirs, instead, choosing to denigrate and dehumanize those who differ from them."

So that's why oil is spilling endlessly into the gulf and terrorists are achieving nuclear capability and we have a President without leadership skills who is projecting endless deficits to bankrupt our country and some Asian dictatorship is moving into a dominant economic position...

I, though, haven't noticed that "too many people cannot think and reason adequatly and will not accept values different from theirs, instead, choosing to denigrate and dehumanize those who differ from them".

How is that causing all our troubles?

Could we have some examples?

"Try focusing on something that can improve the lives of humankind instead of pushing a bogus solution for a bogus problem."

You mean like giving first graders condoms?

Oh, I see what you mean...

Look, the big problem with distributing condoms at any age is that it leads kids to think that society expects them to have sexual activity at a young age.

While throwing in some abstinence talk is better than not doing it, the best thing would be to raise kids with coherent sexual values.

Lives would be saved overall.

The whole stance of "here's a condom, kid, and don't let me hear about you using it" is not working.

Teen pregancy has begun to rise as certain vociferous groups like TTF have made sure this impression is given to children.

July 05, 2010 8:08 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Teen pregancy has begun to rise as certain vociferous groups like TTF have made sure this impression is given to children."

Teen pregnancy has increased because parents haven't done their jobs at home!
The schools have spent millions upon millions trying to make up for the deficiency of parental teaching within the home. Schools do not encourage pregnancy...kids learn lessons from the society they experience every day around them and from the examples set for them by their parents (or not set for them by their parents). Attack the source of the problem where it really lies, "Anonymous", ...in your own home and in the homes of all of the so-called "Family Values" hypocrites.

In your own words, "Anonymous":
"While throwing in some abstinence talk is better than not doing it, the best thing would be to raise kids with coherent sexual values."

July 05, 2010 10:38 AM  
Blogger JimK said...

Anon was disagreeing with condom distribution to elementary school children...

I was responding to Anon, who had said "Like teaching them their "gender identity is their inner sense of whether they are male or female" or that "sexual orientation is innate" (despite all evidence to the contrary)." Anon's own view may be that sexual orientation is acquired somehow, there is no legitimate scientific or medical research that supports this, and much to the contrary.

No one has suggested that. We should pay for one that tells the truth- that science hasn't reached a conclusion on how sexual PREFERENCE develops.

Nothing in the MCSP curriculum discusses the development of sexual orientation, which is the more accurate term. It is innate, but you're right, there is no solid theory about what determines a person's orientation. Therefore the schools don't address the topic.

You are simply implying rhetoric to attack a value system different than your own.

I'm sorry Anon, but values pertinent to life in the twenty-first century include acceptance of diversity and skeptical, critical thinking. You can teach religious values at home if you like, those were never part of a publicly provided education. And if your beliefs are extreme or unusual, as the Anon I was discussing with previously, you may have to accept that the public school district is not going to promote your values. That Anon seems to believe that taxpayers should provide schools that promote extreme values, but I don't think the idea is going to get much traction in this county. You're free to be a weirdo in our county, but it'll cost you.

You mean like giving first graders condoms?

You haven't been paying attention, Anon, have you? Nobody was going to give a first grader a condom. The policy was to allow the school nurse to decide, and in my experience those nurses are qualified to handle all sorts of personal issues. It is unimaginable that a first grader would need a condom, but you can't set a lower age on when it might be necessary, and the best thing is to leave it up to a responsible, trained adult's discretion.

You seem to think it is shocking that the government does not prohibit giving condoms to students, I think it was good for schools to offer this health service and leave the determination up to the school nurse, just like she decides whether a kid needs a band-aid or whether a kid is sick enough to need to go home. It's just another example of conservatives trying to get the government to interfere with the personal lives of citizens.

JimK

July 05, 2010 10:49 AM  

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