Monday, October 31, 2005

Fishback on the GLSEN Conspiracy Theory

A few days ago, I posted something here about a statement on the CRC's web site that says we are a "front" for GLSEN, the Gay Lesbian Straight Education Network. I blogged what I thought had happened, that their moles on our listserve had seen a misdirected message and they had blown it up into a conspiracy theory. They were so confident in their inferences that they felt it was appropriate to alert the entire world that TeachTheFacts.org is a "front" for GLSEN.

David Fishback, former chair of the citizens committee that evaluated the most recent health curriculum, had replied to that message on our listserve, and in the comments here an Anonymous commenter kept the speculation alive about what his role was in all this. Mr. Fishback read the comments and decided to respond. Here is what he sent us:
Anonymous is all in a lather because he/she thinks I am involved in some sort of clandestine activity. It is kind of hard to take that seriously from someone who won't say who he/she is on a public discussion forum.

Anyway, I will now disclose organizations I have contacted over the last months as so many of us have worked to keep sensible health education revisions on track:

American Medical Association

American Academy of Pediatrics

American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry

American Psychiatric Association

American Psychological Association

Jewish Community Relations Council

Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays (PFLAG)

Gay and Lesbian Educators Network (GLSEN)

Equality Maryland

So, Anonymous can say, "Horrors, David Fishback is in contact with the American Medical Association." Yep, that is really a scary, left-wing group. The people at the AMA national offices were very nice. They put me in touch with Dr. Paul Wertsch, immediate past-president of the Wisconsin Medical Society who is now Chair of the AMA's advisory committee on GLBT issues. Dr. Wertsch was kind enough to come to Montgomery County on his own dime to address the Teachthefacts.org community forum last month.

Of course, I'll stack up PFLAG against PFOX any day of the week. PFLAG, a truly grassroots organization of people who have done so much to help so many, is a group of which I am a proud member. I was honored to have the opportunity to present DC Metro PFLAG's Faith in Action Award to Episcopal Bishop John Chane at its 2004 Gala. That same year, Congressman Richard Gebhardt was the keynote speaker. One of DC Metro PFLAG's most active members has been former Republican Congressman Steve Gunderson.

I recently spoke on a panel at the National PFLAG meeting, which was held in Bethesda this year, along with Dr. Jack Dresher of the American Psychiatric Association. PFOX's Richard Cohen was in the audience. Didn't ask any questions, though.

I contacted GLSEN as part of my research regarding how other school systems have dealt with sexual orientation in their curricula.
So why did someone from GLSEN ask about a conference call on the TTF listserve? This is the burning question that so agitates Anonymous. The answer is very simple. National PFLAG has organized a few conference calls on health education issues; I was invited to participate, and I was happy to do so. People from GLSEN participated, as well. It is well known that I am involved with Teachthefacts.org. Perhaps we were remiss in exchanging e-mail addresses, but it is not surprising that a GLSEN person wanting to know about another conference call and not having contact information would make such an inquiry on the TTF listserve. Perhaps Anonymous thinks it sinister that I would actually speak with people who share my view - and that of every mainstream American medical and mental health professional association - that homosexuality is not an illness and that people can be perfectly happy living their lives consistent with their sexual orientation.

Jim described my involvement with Teachthefacts.org very accurately. I know Anonymous would love to make it appear that anyone who happens to agree with the American Medical Association on these issues must be my surrogate. Well, if you are convinced that my views (and those of the mainstream health care professionals) are completely wrong, that no reasonable person could hold them, then you have to think that I must be some kind of Svengali.

Here is the truth: Over the last several years I have been gratified to learn that people in our community understand or are open to learning the real facts about sexual orientation. I have found this in churches and synagogues, among elected officials and everyday people. I am grateful and proud to live in Montgomery County.

Yet, Anonymous seems to think that all this effort to end the deafening silence in the MCPS curriculum is nothing more than the work of shadowy groups working through one person in the County. I greatly admire the Teachthefacts.org founders and organizers. They exhibit public spiritedness at its best. I did not have to start an organization or lead it in order to advance my views in our community. So many people spontaneously rose up to carry that banner. And I am pleased to join them. Still, Anonymous comforts him/herself by asserting that Teachthefacts.org must be some sort of a “front.”

In September, the Gazette reported that Michelle Turner (who, like me, was a member of the old Citizens Advisory Committee; but, unlike me, is now president of a group taking a strong position on the wisdom of the Board’s November 2004 decision) spoke at the convention in Missouri of Phyllis Schlafy's Eagle Forum. Does that make her or CRC a "front" for Phyllis Schlafly or James Dobson (who bankrolled PFOX and whose Family Research Council pays Peter Sprigg, PFOX's rep on the new CAC) or Richard Cohen (who is president of PFOX - and also was expelled for life by the American Counseling Association) or Jerry Falwell (whose Liberty Counsel handled the CRC/PFOX lawsuit) or Anne Arundel Delegate Don Dwyer (who has sought to make a name for himself attacking efforts to provide equal rights for gays and keynoted the CRC "town hall meeting" last March). Of course not. Michelle is her own person. I suspect that she associates herself with Schlafly, Dobson, Falwell, Cohen, and Falwell because she shares their views -- maybe not every single thing, but the basic thrust of their approaches and worldviews.

40 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Man, you guys are really worried about this. I don't blame you for not wanting to be associated with an organization which has clearly stated it's agenda for corrupting the youth of America. I can only imagine how bad the organization must be that gave you the two-hour briefing on what to say. If they're telling you what to say, can we then say you're a front for them? How much influence would constitute a "front"?

Of course, your association with Fishback is just as bad. Have you ever been to one of those gay pride parades he participates in?

Jim, you've repeatedly said that CRC is reading your e-mail. Is this completely spurious or do you have any shred of evidence? Or is it just a mental problem, like those guys that sit across from the White House and say the government is beaming radio waves into their brains?

October 31, 2005 10:43 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Enough said.....


Minutes of 2/3/05 Meeting

Citizens for a Responsible Curriculum

Excerpt 1

There is another group in Ohio, the CCV (Citizens for Community Values) www.ccv.org, that was able to affect curriculum in Ohio and started as a grassroots effort, like ours(CRC). We(CRC) met with them and they had quite a bit of advice, and importantly, a liability letter on the dangers of homosexuality that we (CRC) can use to present to the BOE.


Excerpt 2

Steve Dirlick from the Republican National Committee was in attendance and talked about his training at grass roots organizations training – he indicated we were on the right track



**********************************
Minutes of 2/10/05 Meeting

Citizens for a Responsible Curriculum


Excerpt 1

Steve (Fisher) indicated that we should ask CCV how they handled NPR if they got requests.


"anon free"

October 31, 2005 10:56 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Enough said.....


Minutes of 2/3/05 Meeting

Citizens for a Responsible Curriculum

Excerpt 1

There is another group in Ohio, the CCV (Citizens for Community Values) www.ccv.org, that was able to affect curriculum in Ohio and started as a grassroots effort, like ours(CRC). We(CRC) met with them and they had quite a bit of advice, and importantly, a liability letter on the dangers of homosexuality that we (CRC) can use to present to the BOE.


Excerpt 2

Steve Dirlick from the Republican National Committee was in attendance and talked about his training at grass roots organizations training – he indicated we were on the right track



**********************************
Minutes of 2/10/05 Meeting

Citizens for a Responsible Curriculum


Excerpt 1

Steve (Fisher) indicated that we should ask CCV how they handled NPR if they got requests.


"anon free"

October 31, 2005 10:56 AM  
Blogger JimK said...

Anon, at the TTF Yahoo group, people who want to be members send us a request, and we have to approve them. We see their email addresses and get some other information from them. We know that at least two CRC members have signed up.

JimK

October 31, 2005 11:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Very enlightening, anon-free. CCV sounds like a terrific group, but why is TTF embarassed to admit who gave them advice?

October 31, 2005 11:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Anon, at the TTF Yahoo group, people who want to be members send us a request, and we have to approve them. We see their email addresses and get some other information from them. We know that at least two CRC members have signed up."

So you can't say they're moles if they've made themselves known, right?

Who's that group that's been giving you PR advice?

October 31, 2005 11:06 AM  
Blogger JimK said...

Doesn't it seem a little odd for a guy who calls himself "Anonymous" to be asking for all kinds of details about our organization? We reserve the right to privacy in conducting our business, just like everybody else. Forget it.

JimK

October 31, 2005 12:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You're the one who holds yourself out as a community representative. I'm just a lone citizen asking for an explanation.

October 31, 2005 12:23 PM  
Blogger andrear said...

Anon- get over yourself. You are the worried, ashamed person- no name but lots of accusations. Wyatt, Johnny, Steve? Is it you?

October 31, 2005 12:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is a Nixonian level of stonewalling.

October 31, 2005 1:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

anonymous said

This is a Nixonian level of stonewalling.

****

Don't you get it anonymous..we all are laughing at you acting like Sherlock Holmes and all that...for whatever role playing you are doing today. Must be Halloween..oh wait it is.


"anon free"

October 31, 2005 1:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, there's more than one way to get through some tight spots.

This one ought to know!

http://www.planetdan.net/pics/misc/georgie.htm

October 31, 2005 1:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, it may all seem very humorous but it just might get you kicked off the CAC when the truth comes out. Too many know to keep it secret.

October 31, 2005 1:59 PM  
Blogger Kay2898 said...

Anonymous said...
Well, it may all seem very humorous but it just might get you kicked off the CAC when the truth comes out. Too many know to keep it secret.
**************

Wow a big secret that TTF thinks differently than CRC/Recall about sex education. I am surprised
TTF kept that secret so long. My CRC/Recall must be slow on the uptake.

My anonymous how shocking and I just bet that alone will get TTF kicked off CAC for being so upfront and truthful.


Imagine TTF not taking time to misrepresent the health curriculum...imagine TTF not taking time in
misusing PTA parent directories...just imagine and more.

October 31, 2005 2:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kay2898 said

"imagine TTF not taking time in
misusing PTA parent directories...just imagine and more."


Now that CRC has been awarded their very own MCCPTA resolution against their misuse of PTA Directories I would think they feel important.

"anon free"

October 31, 2005 2:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kay

They didn't tell you, did they? I'm sure it's really bad.

October 31, 2005 3:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"misuse of PTA Directories"

what kind of a sick mind would even think of that?

October 31, 2005 3:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

From Tilden Community over misuse of PTA Directories containing children's private contact information as misused by CRC in mailings.

Needless to say CRC did not reply to Tilden community to assure them that their children's private information would not be misused again by CRC or sold or shared or anything with others.

*********************


From : susan Wyderko Sent :

Monday, May 2, 2005
To : steve.fisher@mcpscurriculum.com
Subject : Mailing to Tilden Middle School


Dear Mr. Fisher:

I am the President of the Tilden Middle School PTSA. I and other
parents have received a mailing from your organization. The
envelopes are addressed "To the Parents of: [my child's name],"
followed by our home address.

I would like for you to tell me precisely how you got the names and
home addresses of our children. The parents of our school are
extremely concerned that you have, obviously in electronic format, a
list of the names of their children and the address where their
children live. Many of our parents have been unable to focus upon
the content of your mailing because they have such a high degree of
alarm and concern that you have this information. Please tell me
where and how you got this information so that I may pass it along
to the parents of Tilden Middle School.

In addition, please explain to me whether you plan to, or already
have, sold or provided the names and home addresses of our children
to any other groups, advocacy or otherwise. We have very concerned
that your organization may find it financially profitable to sell
this information to groups that may wish to precisely target or
locate the names and home addresses of children. We consider the
names and home addresses of our children to be private information
and we are very dismayed about the possibility that this information
may end up in the hands of unscrupulous individuals.

It is not clear to me from the website of your organization whether
you or any individual running your organization is a parent. As a
parent, and as one who has spoken over the past few days to a large
number of highly anxious parents who have received your mailing,
please understand that we need to have answers to these questions as
soon as possible.

Susan Wyderko
Tilden Middle School
PTSA President



***************************

CC: tilden@yahoogroups.com
From: "Jane (deleted) !
Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 10:21:37 -0400
Subject: Re: [tilden] Sex ed curriculum


I was wondering the same thing. How did they get all our addresses? Was this information somehow obtained from the school or did they get ahold of a Tilden directory. Jane de Winter

Amy (Deleted) wrote:

I agree wholeheartedly -- the curriculum is common sense and contains
nothing radical. The name is awful though -- who thought of the title
"sexual variation?" Surely a better title can be found.

If parents find parts objectionable for whatever reason, their children can
be exempted from those sections. I dislike that they want to impose their
values and views on my family by censoring the curriculum.

BTW, how did this group get our children's names and addresses? That is
somewhat concerning to me.

Amy (Deleted)

_______________________

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 22:26:59 -0000
From: "sfwyderko"
Subject: Changes to health curriculum

I and other members of the Tilden community have received a letter
addressed to "Parents of [my child's name]" from a group calling
itself "Citizens for a Responsible Curriculum." This letter
purports to warn parents of an impending change to the health
curriculum that, the letter states, "defends and advocates sexual
variations."

Coincidentally, just last Friday I had the opportunity to examine
the two hour health curriculum information that the letter claims to
describe. I participated in a focus group with two school
professionals, two eighth graders, and another parent. We reviewed
carefully the exact information that will be presented to some
eighth graders in a pilot program that will be offered later this
school year. (Participation in the pilot is entirely voluntary.)

In my opinion, the letter we have received badly mis-states the
information that is included in the new component of the
curriculum. The new curriculum defines words (such as
homosexuality) that our children encounter on a daily basis. It
provides factual information in an appropriate and non-sensational
manner. It does not "defend and advocate sexual variations." The
curriculum, and the total health curriculum in general, strongly
advocates abstinence from sexual relations.

I urge you not to come to any conclusions about the new component of
the health curriculum on the basis of this letter (or, indeed,
merely upon my description of it.) Your children deserve for you to
first examine the curriculum before deciding whether it is
appropriate or not.

Should you decide that the new curriculum contains information that
is inappropriate for your child, the school system makes it easy for
you to have your child "opt-out" of participating. That has been
the case in the past with portions of the health curriculum which
deal with issues touching upon human sexuality; it is true with this
portion of the curriculum as well.

Susan Wyderko
PTSA President

___________

"anon free"

October 31, 2005 4:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Final Resolution
Adopted May 10, 2005

WHEREAS the Tilden Middle School Parent Teacher Student Association compiles and publishes annually a student directory that includes potentially sensitive information such as the name, street address and telephone numbers of all students whose parents have agreed to have such information included, and

WHEREAS by common knowledge and accepted practice this directory is intended exclusively for the private use of the Tilden community to facilitate communication within the Tilden community, and is not intended to be used for any other purpose, and

WHEREAS an organization calling itself the Citizens for Responsible
Curriculum (CRC) has conceded that it surreptitiously obtained a copy of the student directory and used the information in it to develop a mailing list for a purpose inconsistent with the intended or appropriate use of the directory, and

WHEREAS the President of the Tilden Middle School PTSA has formally asked the CRC to describe how it obtained the list and with whom they have shared it or to whom they may have sold it, and the CRC has declined to reply,

BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that the Tilden Middle School PTSA objects in the strongest terms to the misuse of the directory by the CRC, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the PTSA demands that the CRC respond promptly and completely to the questions raised by its President about the source and intended use of the directory information, specifically identifying any instances in which this information may have already been sold or otherwise made available to another individual or entity, and

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the PTSA demands the CRC agree in writing to cease using the information obtained from the directory, and to return to the PTSA all copies of the directory information now in the possession of CRC, in whatever form the information may exist, or certify in writing that this information has been destroyed.


"anon free"

October 31, 2005 4:30 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

October 31, 2005 4:39 PM  
Blogger JimK said...

Sarcastic comment deleted.

JimK

October 31, 2005 4:41 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

comments that have points making TTF look stupid will be deleted

October 31, 2005 4:46 PM  
Blogger JimK said...

the rule has always been the same: Morons' comments will be deleted. Always been that way...

We usually don't have to enforce it.

JimK

October 31, 2005 4:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

anoymouse...folks are just sad that you do not get how it makes "you" look.

Go play on CRC's sad excuse for a message board. They need you so badly over there to spout their rhetoric unchallenged.

"anon free'

October 31, 2005 4:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

well, my point about the PTA thing is that TTF and their buddies try to turn this mailing into some kind of major offense against humanity but, really, it was just conveying information to parents; when they bring that up, they are just against the free exchange of ideas; I said it in a sarcastic way, which I think is appropriate

October 31, 2005 4:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous it was verified that what CRC told MCCPTA was not the truth in that parents had asked PTAs for info and PTAs refused to give parents info so CRC stepped in.

The PTAS strongly asserted that CRC lied. CRC did not prove otherwise and has not even now. They (CRC) lied they got caught.

Thus we have resolutions against CRC from Tilden and from MCCPTA it now looks like.

CRC took children's private information without parental permission. Each letter was addressed "To the Parents of Jane or John Doe etc..(children's identifying info inserted)

Why should any organization take children's names, create a database, use it and then not comply with answering as to status of database containing school children's names when they had no ones permission and certainly not permission of those parents?

The parents felt their children had been violated and CRC out and out lied in the letters what the curriculum contained.

So Tilden PTSA went to the mat to deal with CRC and it looks like MCCPTA just might as well.


"anon free"
"anon free"

October 31, 2005 5:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Anonymous it was verified that what CRC told MCCPTA was not the truth in that parents had asked PTAs for info and PTAs refused to give parents info so CRC stepped in.

The PTAS strongly asserted that CRC lied. CRC did not prove otherwise and has not even now. They (CRC) lied they got caught.

Thus we have resolutions against CRC from Tilden and from MCCPTA it now looks like.

CRC took children's private information without parental permission. Each letter was addressed "To the Parents of Jane or John Doe etc..(children's identifying info inserted)"

so what?

"Why should any organization take children's names, create a database, use it and then not comply with answering as to status of database containing school children's names when they had no ones permission and certainly not permission of those parents?"

I get letters all the time that I didn't give the sender permission to send me. Big deal. There's no law that says you need permission to send someone a letter.

The PTA is a puppet of the school board. The PTA has been non-active in this all sex-ed debate which is a disgrace.

"The parents felt their children had been violated"

oh, please! sending their parents a letter is violating them? get a grip on reality!

"and CRC out and out lied in the letters what the curriculum contained."

Thar's a matter of opinion.

"So Tilden PTSA went to the mat to deal with CRC and it looks like MCCPTA just might as well."

Fighting for truth, justice and the right of parents to be ignorant. Or is it the right of the PTA to shape the parents' access to information.

October 31, 2005 5:22 PM  
Blogger Kay2898 said...

CRC took children's private information without parental permission. Each letter was addressed "To the Parents of Jane or John Doe etc..(children's identifying info inserted)"


Anonymous then said:
so what?


_________________

Well if CRC is full of molesters and pedophiles..it would be a dream having children's private contact info and where they lived.

Think about it....

October 31, 2005 5:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Well if CRC is full of molesters and pedophiles.."

Are they, Kay?

October 31, 2005 9:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Well if CRC is full of molesters and pedophiles.."

Is there one person who fits that description in the entire Tilden PTA?

October 31, 2005 9:57 PM  
Blogger JimK said...

Anon, you're attempt to drag the discussion into the mud is disgusting. Please go somewhere else.

That's not what she said and you know it.

JimK

October 31, 2005 9:58 PM  
Blogger Kay2898 said...

The point being no one should have children's private information through a PTA directory and use it for balatant misrepresentation and a non-school use at that when they know better. The PTSA did not give permission for it and CRC did not seek their permission. CRC just took the directories regardless of Tilden PTSA.

The Pres. of MCCPTA verified with PTSAs involved that not one parent asked CRC to do anything including give them their view on curriculum.

Resolutions from Tilden and MCCPTA as whole do not happen just for fun. Resolutions are meant to send an undeniable message and in this case to CRC from both entities over the misuse of the directories.


Anonymous you know the difference concerning the word "if" and any other word.

Do not be idiotic.

October 31, 2005 10:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Anon, you're attempt to drag the discussion into the mud is disgusting. Please go somewhere else.

That's not what she said and you know it."

Kay brought the topic up and you know it. She was trying to make an offensive implication.

November 01, 2005 5:38 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The point being no one should have children's private information through a PTA directory"

The whole school community has it. They let anybody in a public school. Who knows who might have it.

"and use it for balatant misrepresentation and a non-school use at that when they know better."

They didn't misrepresent anything and discussion of proposed classes is a school use.

"The PTSA did not give permission for it and CRC did not seek their permission. CRC just took the directories regardless of Tilden PTSA."

Took from where?

"The Pres. of MCCPTA verified with PTSAs involved that not one parent asked CRC to do anything including give them their view on curriculum."

How could they possibly do that?

"Resolutions from Tilden and MCCPTA as whole do not happen just for fun."

No, they're political organizations playing politics.

"Resolutions are meant to send an undeniable message and in this case to CRC from both entities over the misuse of the directories."

They were used to communicate with parents about school issues. That's an appropriate use.


"Anonymous you know the difference concerning the word "if" and any other word.

Do not be idiotic."

For you to bring up such a horrible suggestion shows how despicable you are- whether you used the word "if" or not. I can only imagine the howling that would take place if CRC said "what if TTF was full of pedophiles?"

November 01, 2005 5:47 AM  
Blogger JimK said...

Anon, TTF didn't abuse the directories, so that's not an issue. Of course she wasn't calling CRC pedophiles, and your mistconstrual of her words is a style of faux-argument that we're already very familiar with. It won't impress anybody over here.

There is good reason to protect against the misuse of a book that contains lists of addresses and phone numbers of schoolchildren, and CRC's abuse was abuse. That's not just our opinion, that's the official opinion of the PTA at the school where it happened, of the county PTA executive board, and now, it seems of the county PTA delegates.

JimK

November 01, 2005 6:32 AM  
Blogger Kay2898 said...

Anonymous said...


Kay brought the topic up and you know it. She was trying to make an offensive implication.

_____________

Intelligent people know the difference between the word "if" and the pretend game you are playing at trying to imply a whole other thing that no one is buying into. People can read and "if" means "if."

Go play on the CRC message board. Your misrepresentations will go over great there as on only side can be presented.

That will not happen here. People will call you on blantant misrepresentations you do here.

November 01, 2005 8:01 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
I can only imagine the howling that would take place if CRC said "what if TTF was full of pedophiles?"

**********************

You just said it...do you hear TTF howling...NO?

They know your game and certainly do know what words mean....nice try "anonymouse."

Grow up

"anon free"

November 01, 2005 9:18 AM  
Blogger CorinneD said...

well, my point about the PTA thing is that TTF and their buddies try to turn this mailing into some kind of major offense against humanity but, really, it was just conveying information to parents; when they bring that up, they are just against the free exchange of ideas; I said it in a sarcastic way, which I think is appropriate


It reveals a great deal about your character that cloaked in annonimity you sling mud at TTF and it's members and cast aspersions on someone like David Fishback who proudly stands up for the rights of all human beings to live in dignity. If you're so sure you're on the "right" side of this issue why don't you reveal yourself.

You don't because you are are a coward. The mailing by CRC to public schools students without the permission of the school or the PTA is a bid deal. It's a very big deal. You and your friends at CRC would be the first to cry foul if TTF, for example, surreptitiously obtained electronic copies of a school's mailing list and used it to send letters to parents regarding the organization's support for the revised curriculum. If history is indicative of the future, you would probably sue the organization and the MCPTA.

TTF, generally, and Jim K, specifically do not owe you anything. If you are sincere in your interest in this subject and an open, honest debate about the issues step out of the shadows. Otherwise, you can return to your own kind.

November 01, 2005 10:22 AM  
Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

Jim,

I apologize for posting this here, but it seemed a more appropriate blog than the Texas ones I know what you mean about real Texans -- they're not the Bush immigrant phonies. But until the real Texans stand up and take back their state, like patriotic Americans must do in general, we will have to deal with their inanities.

This is Andrew Sullivan blogging today, repeating the question you posed to Anon and the CRC crowd before:

I [Sullivan] asked "Why is it in society's interests to keep gay women and men from [civil marriage's] stability and security?" Here's one answer:

As long as "God" says it is a sin you must be punished, banished and not allowed to prosper.
And we have to make the old adage true that homosexuals live and die alone. Otherwise our children will think it's okay to be gay.

Anyone else care to respond to my specific question? To put it another way: Given that around 3 percent of the population is gay and always will be; given that we live in a free society and do not wish to lock them up or deport them; why is it in society's broader interest to discourage them from forming stable bonds? In some ways, it cuts to the chase of the debate.

November 01, 2005 4:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dana

I think I answered the question that Jim asked which you are referring to, although I think it differs significantly from Sullivan's question. It's somewhere back in the comments of one of this week's posts. You probably won't like it though. Several of the single-digit frequenters here called it sick.

Might give your question a stab tonight after House, MD.

Lightning

November 01, 2005 5:20 PM  

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