How the Other Side Thinks

Family Blah Blah Megastar James Dobson was on Larry King's show the other day, talking about Ted Haggard, sexual orientation, and other things that interest us here. Sometimes it is just amazing to listen to them.

The transcript of the interview is HERE.

Ted Haggard's quick tumble from grace is one of the signature stories of our time. It is interesting then to watch Dobson deal with it.

KING: Have you spoken to him?

DOBSON: I have talked to him. I was asked to serve on a three person restoration panel and I originally wanted to be of help and said that I would, but I just don't have the time to do that. And I called my board of directors, we talked about it at length and they were unanimous in asking me not to do that, because this could take four or five years and I just have too many other things going on.

KING: How's he doing?

DOBSON: I don't know. I haven't talked to him since it happened.

KING: Oh you haven't?

DOBSON: I talked to him the day that the news broke and I have not talked to him since then.

...
KING: When you say, Doctor, when you say "restoration" you mean restore him from being gay to not gay or what do you mean?

DOBSON: Yeah, probably that, too. But in Galatians 6.1, there is a scripture that says when -- "Brothers when one of you falls into sin, those who are spiritual should work to restore him gently." That is the scripture behind the restoration process and that word, and three men, now will oversee discipline punishment -- if there is any, therapy, his behavior, his money, his future and will lead him if he is willing to cooperate, and apparently he is -- through a restoration process. We don't want to just kick him out, I mean, he's lost his church, obviously, but there's still concern for him as an individual.

KING: We discussed this before in the past, but not recently: Do you still believe that being gay is a choice rather than a given?

DOBSON: I never did believe that.

KING: Oh, you don't believe it.

DOBSON: I don't believe that. Neither do I believe it's genetic. I said that...

KING: Then what is it?

DOBSON: I said that on your program one time and both of us got a lot of mail for it. I don't blame homosexuals for being angry when people say they've made a choice to be gay because they don't.

It usually comes out of very, very early childhood, and this is very controversial, but this is what I believe and many other people believe, that is has to do with an identity crisis that occurs to early to remember it, where a boy is born with an attachment to his mother and she is everything to him for about 18 months, and between 18 months and five years, he needs to detach from her and to reattach to his father.

It's a very important developmental task and if his dad is gone or abusive or disinterested or maybe there's just not a good fit there. What's he going to do? He remains bonded to his mother and...

KING: Is that clinically true or is that theory?

DOBSON: No, it's clinically true, but it's controversial. What homosexual activists, especially, would like everybody to believe is that it is genetic, that they don't have any choice. If it were genetic, Larry -- and before we went on this show, you and I were talking about twin studies -- if it were genetic, identical twins would all have it. Identical twins, if you have a homosexuality in one twin, it would be there in the other.

Let me introject a couple of things here. This "detach and reattach" stuff is pure speculation. The "distant father" theory that NARTH promotes ... same thing, pure bull-oney. "Bonded to the mother," ridiculous. It's a joke, a kind of way of making fun of real science. There is no peer-reviewed research supporting any of this, it's pure quackery.

When Dobson uses the term "clinically true," he is blowing it out of his ... sense of wishful thinking. There is no concept in science or medicine that would be called "clinical truth" -- there are only degrees of uncertainty -- and there is absolutely nothing that backs up this crazy theory.

Further, this kind of talk about genetics is totally irresponsible for a person with an advanced education, as Dobson has. If he doesn't understand how it works he shouldn't be talking about it.

You can see why an important part of the religious right's strategy would be to undermine education, as we've seen in Montgomery County -- if the people remain ignorant, they are more likely to believe this kind of illiterate nonsense.

Larry King asked a couple of pretty good questions:

KING: Well, how could a gay person preach against gays? How could you do that?

DOBSON: Well, a lot of people wonder that. He, obviously, was, again, at war with himself. He was involved in activities that I think horrified him. He said that he fought against it, but he also knew what he believed.

It was not hypocrisy. It was a struggle between behavior and the belief system.

Note: Would you let your kids get away with an excuse like that? Yeah, dad, I would've done my homework, but there was a struggle between by behavior and my belief system ...

KING: How long does counseling last in this kind of case?

DOBSON: It could be a long time. I would think that the restoration process here, if Reverend Haggard chooses to go through with it, would be three to five years.

KING: And is success the fact that he is no longer gay? Would that be your definition of success?

DOBSON: That would be part of it. It's a spiritual restoration, too. It's a personal and marital restoration. It involves every aspect of life.

I mean, Ted himself wrote, in his letter to his church the day this was disclosed, "I am a liar and I'm a deceiver," and that has to be dealt with.

And how about them libruls?

"Those again on the liberal end of the spectrum are those who have no value system, or at least they say there is no moral and immoral. There's no right or wrong. . . . But when a religious leader, or especially an evangelical, falls, guess who is the most judgmental of him and calling him a hypocrite? . . . Those that said there is no right and wrong in the first place. The truth of the matter is there is right and wrong. And we all within our midst have failures, and they do occur."

I think it is fine for somebody like Dobson to hypothesize about what it would be like if a group of people had no value system, no morals, no sense of right or wrong. What a sensible person objects to here is the idea that there really are people like that in our country, people who are called "liberals."

To state the obvious: liberal ideals arise from a moral standpoint. Whatever, I'm not going there, the ignorance of these kinds of statements calls for a response, but ... sometimes I'm embarrassed to have to even talk about these things. And this beautiful Saturday afternoon I don't feel like doing that to myself. Sorry.

This one was an eye-opener to me:

KING: What is forgiveness to you? Like, you forgive Haggard, don't you, Mr. Haggard?

DOBSON: I don't forgive Haggard because his sin was not against me. God has to do the forgiving. I continue to love him. He is a friend. He will always be my friend. And I'm sorry for what's happened...

KING: But you don't forgive him?

DOBSON: ... but God has to forgive him. And, I mean, his relationship with his wife has to be one of forgiveness.

KING: She has to forgive him?

DOBSON: Yes. And...

KING: Not in your purview, though?

DOBSON: It's not my job to do that.

Growing up Christian, I had always understood that Jesus wanted us to forgive others. It is fascinating to see how Dobsonian Christians have relieved themselves of that burden.

These religious characters have a prominent role in today's American culture, and even though their guys lost in the elections, they're not going away. It's up to us to learn how they think, to understand their goals and tactics, so we can stop them before it gets out of hand, like it nearly did last time.