Monday, June 16, 2008

Interesting Flyer Proposal

Australian blogger Zoe Brain has been tracking our Montgomery County gender-identity discrimination situation, and has posted a proposed "flyer" to help us out. Some of the photographs may be proprietary, so I'm not going to copy the whole thing here. You can see Zoe's idea by clicking HERE.

The Citizens for Responsible Whatever want voters to believe that transgender people have some dark sexual motive, that they are dangerous somehow. Zoe's flyer makes the simple concrete point that transgender women are just women, transgender men are just men. For some reason, a handful of citizens in our county believe there would be something offensive about treating such people with the same respect that the rest of us expect.

55 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, you can use that flyer but, since it represents a flat-out lie, and since CRG will take the trouble to make the public aware of that, it will be to the detriment of your cause.

The flyer says CRG doesn't want transgenders to be allowed to do things like order pizza and go to the movies. This is a complete lie and one that has been repeated by Teach the Facts many times over.

All CRG objects to is a law that forces businesses and individuals to treat someone as the gender they have decided to "express".

Transgenders are free to do anything that anyone else can but, in situations where there is a gender context, no one will be forced to treat them as anything other than their biological gender.

In short, the government will remain neutral as to the value question of whether gender is defined by anatomy or expression.

That's called liberty.

June 16, 2008 11:25 AM  
Anonymous Derrick said...

Great flyer!

:-)

It's nice to be on summer break...but I am already bored.

I hope everyone had a great weekend.

June 16, 2008 11:54 AM  
Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

Sorry, Anon, but that is not liberty.

The government recognizes the right of people to not suffer discrimination. You can believe whatever archaic things you want about biology, but it is not determinative. Science doesn't agree with you, medicine doesn't agree with you, and increasingly, government and now the law doesn't agree with you.

You can choose not to have me over for pizza, but you cannot refuse to deliver that pizza to me should I order it from you.

June 16, 2008 1:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Transgenders are free to do anything that anyone else can but, in situations where there is a gender context, no one will be forced to treat them as anything other than their biological gender.

CRG wants trans men in the ladies' room and trans women in the mens' room.

Theresa are you looking forward to sharing your lockerroom and sauna with bearded trans men with XY chromosomes?

June 16, 2008 2:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Sorry, Anon, but that is not liberty."

Freedom to choose who you want to do business is, indeed, liberty. Being forced to otherwise is not.

"The government recognizes the right of people to not suffer discrimination."

It sometimes has intervened for some people in some situations. Those aren't universal rights. They are government interventions. It's not a good idea to extend it to differences in sexual desires.

"You can believe whatever archaic things you want about biology, but it is not determinative. Science doesn't agree with you, medicine doesn't agree with you,"

Depends on the scientist and doctor you talk to. Even then, you generalize.

"and increasingly, government and now the law doesn't agree with you."

The law hasn't cleared the electorate yet here in MC. But thanks for admitting that your real goal is government endorsement of the gay agenda and not relief of any hardship.

"You can choose not to have me over for pizza, but you cannot refuse to deliver that pizza to me should I order it from you."

You're getting ahead of yourself. The law hasn't changed yet so someone could theoretically do so.

Still, the truth is, no transgender in MC is having any trouble getting pizzas. The whole charade has government endorsement of the gay agenda as its goal.

June 16, 2008 2:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My problem with the flier is that it suggests that there really is something to CRW's bathroom argument. This is not a bathroom bill, it is an anti-discrimination bill.

I don't wonder about the bathroom behaviors of any other group of people: parents, singles, straights, gays, races or ethnicities other than my own. Do you think "bathroom" when you hear the mention of any other group of people? CRW wants to be sure that when anyone hears or reads any mention of transgender people, you will think "bathroom."

CRW is afraid that Montgomery County citizens will realize the basic dignity inherent in being treated just as any other responsible adult is treated. They are afraid Montgomery County citizens will realize the basic dignity inherent in learning to look past differences and misunderstanding and actually treating others simply as responsible adults. That's why they have chosen to fight this anti-discrimination bill in the most undignified way possible. That's why they have tried to associate transgender people with the most undignified images possible.

Why should we promote an information campaign that puts CRW's own ugliness above the fold?

June 16, 2008 2:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I don't wonder about the bathroom behaviors of any other group of people: parents, singles, straights, gays, races or ethnicities other than my own. Do you think "bathroom" when you hear the mention of any other group of people? CRW wants to be sure that when anyone hears or reads any mention of transgender people, you will think "bathroom.""

"Discrimination" against those other groups would be not allowing them to use the bathroom at all. Against transgenders, discrimination is defined as just not letting them use the bathroom that corresponds to their fantasies.

CRG didn't make this an issue, the County Council did when they originally crafted the bill to explicitly allow biological males to use the girls' room.

They took the specific language out after a public outcry but left the language in the bill vague enough so it can still be construed that way. Not surprising that astute observers still suspect their intenetions.

It's really the fault of Duchy and Dana.

They're up to no good!

June 16, 2008 2:47 PM  
Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

I'm proud of my work.

Anon, if you are truly a libertarian, which you clearly are not, then you would support everyone's liberty to discriminate on any basis. If I were delivering pizza and chose to not serve you because you're Christian, I would then be within my rights.

If that's what you believe, then say so. It's a defensible argument, though not a popular one.

And every time you accuse me of having a fantasy, you are fomenting fear and hatred with no basis in scientific fact. I believe your religious worldview is a fantasy, and there is certainly no evidence for that worldview, but I respect your right to believe it and I wouldn't discriminate against you on the basis of your belief.

June 16, 2008 4:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Andrea- not anon
I have been in many many bathrooms and I have never seen the private parts of anyone. I just hope the person before me flushes and keeps the stall clean. By the way, MN anon, there are plenty of non transgender women who have facial hair and women who are straight who look "masculine". Will CRG crazies offer private part check stations to be sure people have the right parts to use the toilet???

As to renting- you can turn someone down as a roommate because they are not hip enough or have the wrong sunglasses or eats eggs- the whole review process is like that. Renting an complete apt or house is something else but there is no law saying who can be your roommate.

June 16, 2008 5:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Will CRG crazies offer private part check stations to be sure people have the right parts to use the toilet???"

This kind of lying is a big part of why you are losing.

CRG hasn't suggested that anyone be checked before they use a restroom. They simply contend that bathroom owners be free to make their own policies.

Andrea, it didn't help your cause when you went out to grocery stores screaming at and trying to provoke petitioners exercising their democratic rights. It won't help you now to lie about what your opponents propose.

Do your cause a favor: show some dignity.

June 16, 2008 8:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Anon, if you are truly a libertarian, which you clearly are not, then you would support everyone's liberty to discriminate on any basis."

Generally, that's true. There have been some situations where certain groups have had such an overwhelming social disadvantage that laws were necessary to allow them just to pursue happiness. This is not the case with transgenders in our society, who thrive very nicely.

Properly, these types of laws should be seen as temporary measures. The nomination of Barack Obama, for example, should begin a conversation about ending governmental intervention in race relations. It's getting harder and harder to say that racial minorities have an insurmountable burden in our society.

"If I were delivering pizza and chose to not serve you because you're Christian, I would then be within my rights."

Well, this is a good example. There is no need for special laws protecting Christians against discrimination. Even in the unlikely event that all non-Christians refuse to do profit from relationships with Christians, it would really have no unbearable effect. There is no need for governmental intervention.

"If that's what you believe, then say so. It's a defensible argument, though not a popular one."

see above

"And every time you accuse me of having a fantasy, you are fomenting fear and hatred"

Thinking someone has incorrect view is not hatred.

"with no basis in scientific fact."

Your view is not scientifically validated. It is a subjective state of mind.

"I believe your religious worldview is a fantasy, and there is certainly no evidence for that worldview,"

Well, I think you're wrong but it doesn't make me think you hate and fear me. Indeed, my feeling is that it is your loss.

"but I respect your right to believe it and I wouldn't discriminate against you on the basis of your belief."

Rest assured that if you were to discriminate against because of what I believe, you wouldn't be violating my rights. I don't have any right to business dealings with you. I only have the right to pursue them.

June 16, 2008 9:08 PM  
Blogger Zoe Brain said...

There have been some situations where certain groups have had such an overwhelming social disadvantage that laws were necessary to allow them just to pursue happiness. This is not the case with transgenders in our society, who thrive very nicely.

You might want to get a second opinion from Susan Stanton about that.

From Richard Jang :
A Williams Institute review of six studies conducted in cities and regions on both coasts and the Midwest, showed the following ranges for experiences of discrimination based on gender identity:

13%-56% of transgender people had been fired
13%-47% had been denied employment
22%-31% had been harassed, either verbally or physically, in the workplace


This must be some strange new meaning of the word "thrive" I haven't come across before.

Many TS people do indeed, "thrive" in whatever sense of the word you use it. So did many Blacks in 1920.

This bill extends to TG people the same rights that Blacks, Christians, Jews etc have. If the CRG is for that, they should say so. But that's not what their website says. It remains silent on the issue, while opposing the bill that would grant these human rights. What other conclusion can possibly be drawn?

As regards the "Bathroom Issue", from Family in Focus:
Colorado recently passed a state law that allows men and women to use either restroom. But it's not only happening in Colorado.

Similar laws and ordinances are being enforced in some cities and counties in Maryland, Iowa, Florida and elsewhere. Known as "public accommodation" laws, they open all public restrooms and locker rooms to both sexes.


13 States, 100 cities and counties, 40% of the US population... and they all allow locker rooms to be used by both sexes? I think someone would have noticed by now. Especially since some of these laws have been in effect since 1976.

Or maybe - and this is just a wild hypothesis here - the law doesn't permit what they say it does? That they might be just bending the truth a teeny bit to cover their real agenda? Just a wild guess on my part of course.

Cain Davis, chairman of Citizens for Good Public Policy, said Gainesville, Fla., appears to be the latest battlefront.

“Basically, if a person feels like (the) sex opposite of that in which they were born, they have the legal right to utilize a facility of the sex in which they feel," he said.


Note that they make no differentiation between post-operative transsexuals like the ones on the flyer, and others. The sex that the pediatrician assigned on the original birth certificate is all, and medical reality doesn't count for anything.

Doug Stiegler, executive director of the Association of Maryland Families, said concerned Americans may have to "start locking bathrooms so your granddaughter or your daughter is safe."

I think this statement says it all regarding their honesty. The only conclusion that can be drawn, if they're telling the truth about the situation in 40% of the USA, is that Montgomery County Maryland has more sexual predators than the rest of the country combined. Because the rest of the country has had zero incidents of sexual predation due to such laws.

I don't think this inescapable implication has occurred to them.

All CRG objects to is a law that forces businesses and individuals to treat someone as the gender they have decided to "express".

If so... why is the website called http://www.notmyshower.net/ ?

And why do they mention disapprovingly the Transgender Day of Remembrance, where we remember those TG people lynched or murdered? They don't even want us to publicise these deaths.

We need to call them out on this. The flyer exposes the things they dare not say overtly. Nor specifically deny if they are to retain the support of their financial base.

June 17, 2008 1:59 AM  
Blogger Zoe Brain said...

By the way - look at the html source of the notmyshower site.

The first line is
<!---<?php include_once("/var/www/vhosts/saveourkids.net/httpdocs/oneadmin/config.php"); include_once("/var/www/vhosts/saveourkids.net/httpdocs/oneadmin/common/css.php"); include_once("/var/www/vhosts/saveourkids.net/httpdocs/oneadmin/common/session.php"); include("/var/www/vhosts/saveourkids.net/httpdocs/oneadmin/geotraffic/home.track.php"); ?> --->

Compare with saveourkids.net, another "scare campaign" site. This one "to protect innocent children from sexual indoctrination" and making similar wild and mendacious claims about gays, lesbians etc etc.

The notmyshower site is a modified copy of the saveourkids site.

As a Software Engineer, I highly approve of their re-use of code. But at least they could have derived it from the original source at http://redrival.com/eak/index.shtml
and not left the fingerprints showing their unholy alliance. I wonder if they've been amateurish enough to leave a money trail too?

June 17, 2008 2:39 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ZB,

I'm seeing the "brain" part. Is that some kind of sarcasm? Are a parody blogger?

Anyway:

"From Richard Jang :
A Williams Institute review of six studies conducted in cities and regions on both coasts and the Midwest, showed the following ranges for experiences of discrimination based on gender identity:

13%-56% of transgender people had been fired
13%-47% had been denied employment
22%-31% had been harassed, either verbally or physically, in the workplace"

Quite a range. Here in MC, these percentages would approach zero. We even had a TG running for office in the last election.

Furthermore, this is a bunch of self-reported stuff. The TG may simply think every setback is related to their appearance.

Assuming it is true, there is no "right" to employment. If an employer doesn't think a TG fits the image he wants his employee to have, the TG should look for a place they fit in.

Verbal harassment? Could be anything. In general, we have free speech rights in our country even if that means we aren't talking nice.

A person should be free of "physical harassment" but there are already laws about this and the motive is irrelevant.

"This must be some strange new meaning of the word "thrive" I haven't come across before."

Check out a dictionary. The TGs here in MC are doing fine.

"13 States, 100 cities and counties, 40% of the US population... and they all allow locker rooms to be used by both sexes? I think someone would have noticed by now. Especially since some of these laws have been in effect since 1976."

These laws are all different. Most specifically exclude bathrooms.

"Or maybe - and this is just a wild hypothesis here - the law doesn't permit what they say it does? That they might be just bending the truth a teeny bit to cover their real agenda? Just a wild guess on my part of course."

Except here in MC the first version of the bill specifically brought up the bathroom issue and was changed to make the bill more vague when public reaction was negative. It's clear, however, what the intent was.

"Cain Davis, chairman of Citizens for Good Public Policy, said Gainesville, Fla., appears to be the latest battlefront.

“Basically, if a person feels like (the) sex opposite of that in which they were born, they have the legal right to utilize a facility of the sex in which they feel," he said.

Note that they make no differentiation between post-operative transsexuals like the ones on the flyer, and others. The sex that the pediatrician assigned on the original birth certificate is all, and medical reality doesn't count for anything."

You might also note that MC's proposed law doesn't make any such differentiation. Part of the problem.

"I think this statement says it all regarding their honesty. The only conclusion that can be drawn, if they're telling the truth about the situation in 40% of the USA, is that Montgomery County Maryland has more sexual predators than the rest of the country combined. Because the rest of the country has had zero incidents of sexual predation due to such laws."

This statement is so ridiculous in so many ways. The 40% is dubious and so is the zero.

"All CRG objects to is a law that forces businesses and individuals to treat someone as the gender they have decided to "express".

If so... why is the website called http://www.notmyshower.net/ ?"

Because that's one of the most egregious implications of the new law.

"And why do they mention disapprovingly the Transgender Day of Remembrance, where we remember those TG people lynched or murdered? They don't even want us to publicise these deaths.

We need to call them out on this. The flyer exposes the things they dare not say overtly. Nor specifically deny if they are to retain the support of their financial base."

What a brilliant idea!

Call them out on it.

Isn't that like TTF does when they follow them around and report on every trivial move they make?

June 17, 2008 6:49 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"As a Software Engineer, I highly approve of their re-use of code. But at least they could have derived it from the original source at http://redrival.com/eak/index.shtml
and not left the fingerprints showing their unholy alliance. I wonder if they've been amateurish enough to leave a money trail too?"

Fascinating (not) and completely irrelevant to the issues.

If you're interested in support from outside organizations, however, TTF has had more than their share. They had training from national groups from the beginning and money from national gay wacko groups have supported Equality's efforts against the democratic rights of our citizens.

June 17, 2008 6:56 AM  
Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

You know, Anon, your duplicity is remarkable. You talk about there being laws against physical harassment already on the books, which is the point, dear. How many times have we had to point this out to you? Harassment, intimidation, assault, voyeurism -- they're all on the books in Montgomery County and apply to all bathrooms and showers. You know this, yet you continue to lie.

Oh, and as for the "The 40% is dubious and so is the zero." What a blatant, stupid comment. You can't do any homework? These are demonstrable facts. However, like many of your Republican friends, you repeat lies over and over to get people to believe your version of the truth.

June 17, 2008 7:10 AM  
Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

And for a positive note, to celebrate marriage equality in California:

"The right to marry whoever one wishes is an elementary human right compared to which ‘the right to attend an integrated school, the right to sit where one pleases on a bus, the right to go into any hotel or recreation area or place of amusement, regardless of one’s skin or color or race’ are minor indeed. Even political rights, like the right to vote, and nearly all other rights enumerated in the Constitution, are secondary to the inalienable human rights to 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness' proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence; and to this category the right to home and marriage unquestionably belongs."

That's from Hannah Arendt, in 1959.

June 17, 2008 7:14 AM  
Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

Another positive note (and watch Anon's head explode on this one, though I hear there's now a coaching position open for him on the Mets), this resolution was passed yesterday:

"RESOLUTION 122

Subject: Removing Financial Barriers to Care for Transgender Patients

Whereas, Our American Medical Association opposes discrimination on
the basis of gender identity; and

Whereas, Gender Identity Disorder (GID) is a serious medical condition
recognized as such in both the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of
Mental Disorders 4th Edition (DSM-IV) and the International
Classification of Diseases (10th Revision); and is characterized in
the DSM-IV as a persistent discomfort with one's assigned sex and with
one's primary and secondary sex characteristics, which causes intense
emotional pain and suffering; and

Whereas, GID, if left untreated, can result in clinically significant
psychological distress, dysfunction, debilitating depression and, for
some people without access to appropriate medical care and treatment,
suicidality and death; and

Whereas, The World Profession for Transgender Health, Inc. (WPATH) is
the leading international, interdisciplinary professional organization
devoted to the understanding and treatment of gender identity
disorders, and has established internationally accepted Standards of
Care for providing medical treatment of people with GID, including
mental health care, hormone therapy, and sex reassignment surgery,
which are designed to promote the health and welfare of persons with
GID and are recognized within the medical community to be the standard
of care for treating people with GID; and

Whereas, An established body of medical research demonstrates the
effectiveness and medical necessity of mental health care, hormone
therapy, and sex reassignment surgery as forms
of therapeutic treatment for many people diagnosed with GID; and

Whereas, Health experts in GID, including WPATH, have rejected the
myth that such treatments are "cosmetic" or "experimental" and have
recognized that these treatments can provide safe and effective
treatment for a serious health condition; and

Whereas, Physicians treating persons with GID must be able to provide
the correct treatment necessary for a patient in order to achieve
genuine and lasting comfort with his or her gender, based on the
person's individual needs and medical history; and

Whereas, Our AMA opposes limitations placed on patient care by third-
party payers when such care is based upon sound scientific evidence
and sound medical opinion; and

Whereas, Many health insurance plans categorically exclude coverage of
mental health, medical, and surgical treatments for GID, even though
many of these same treatments, such as psychotherapy, hormone therapy,
breast augmentation or removal, hysterectomy, oophorectomy,
orchiectomy, and salpingectomy, are often covered for other medical
conditions; and

Whereas, The denial of these otherwise covered benefits for patients
suffering from GID represents discrimination based solely on a
patient's gender identity; and

Whereas, Delaying treatment for GID can cause and/or aggravate
additional serious and expensive health problems, such as stress-
related physical illnesses, depression, and substance abuse problems,
which further endanger patients' health and strain the health care
system; therefore be it

RESOLVED, That our American Medical Association support public and
private health insurance coverage for treatment of gender identity
disorder as recommended by the patient’s physician. (New HOD Policy)."

June 17, 2008 7:20 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The 40% is dubious and so is the zero.

Oh really? Then show us some facts to the contrary. Good luck with that. Facts don't seem to be your forte.

There is not one single incident of a man in a dress accosting a female in a ladies room in any jurisdiction where these laws are on the books.

June 17, 2008 7:22 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

For all you O-bomb-a fanatics, today's Washington-Post poll has Obama now has BA leading JM 49-43%.

Which is great, considering that in June 2004 JK had the exact same lead over GB.

More ominous for Obama, both the general electorate and indepedent voters now say McCain will do a better job handling Iraq than Obama.

Obama does lead in the category of who will handle the economy better but some education of the voter will solve that. Basically, the last quarter century has been an economic miracle in America. House prices are down but still over a third higher than when Bush took office. Unemployment and inflation are moderate by historical standards. Growth is now so strong, the Fed is talking about raising interest rates. Energy prices are a problem but McCain has ideas where Obama simply wants to engage in fantasy thinking.

Watch out, Democrats. You're about to blow it again!

June 17, 2008 7:35 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"There is not one single incident of a man in a dress accosting a female in a ladies room in any jurisdiction where these laws are on the books."

No one is keeping such records, you idiot. And 40% of jurisdictions don't have identical laws.

June 17, 2008 7:37 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No one is keeping such records, you idiot.

The police "keep such records," you moron! There have been no such incidents.

June 17, 2008 7:55 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sorry, you imbecile, there is no way to adequately search all police reports to mine that data. There is also, many times, a lack of information about the initiation of such incidents.

This statement, bandied about by gaynuts constantly, is just dubious.

June 17, 2008 8:41 AM  
Anonymous svelte_brunette said...

Anonymous said:

“CRG didn't make this an issue, the County Council did when they originally crafted the bill to explicitly allow biological males to use the girls' room.

They took the specific language out after a public outcry but left the language in the bill vague enough so it can still be construed that way. Not surprising that astute observers still suspect their intenetions.” (sic)

Current county code does not explicitly force men (biological or otherwise) to use the men’s room or to NOT use the ladies’ room, much less impose fines for not using the “correct” restroom. Why wasn’t the CRG formed decades ago to correct laws that were so egregiously vague that it would allow biological males into little girls’ rooms?

What would stop a predator from going into the ladies’ room and just claiming “hey judge, there’s no law against me using that restroom, and I wasn’t even “disturbing the peace…” I was quietly walking out of the stall after having done my business when a woman walked in and had a conniption fit.” These laws were a gaping hole for decades that predators could have exploited, even if they never bothered to use the “temporary insanity” defense. Don’t our precious children deserve better protection than this?

Why did “protecting our children” suddenly become such a huge issue only when gender identity was added to existing anti-discrimination laws? Not surprising that astute observers still suspect the CRG’s intentions.

An Anonymous also said:

“Well, you can use that flyer but, since it represents a flat-out lie, and since CRG will take the trouble to make the public aware of that, it will be to the detriment of your cause.

The flyer says CRG doesn't want transgenders to be allowed to do things like order pizza and go to the movies. This is a complete lie and one that has been repeated by Teach the Facts many times over.”

Zoe used the same rhetorical techniques in her flyer that the CRG used to develop their propaganda. Namely that of cutting and pasting selective text from the bill and other sources, putting them together in a way that supported her argument, extrapolated a bit, drew some conclusions, poured in the bathroom issue, and spun in an alarmist tone.

The CRG did the same thing when they cut and past parts of the Health and Human Services Committee memo to argue that “accommodations” were airports and restaurants and “facilities” were restrooms which left a gaping loophole for predators to use. This in spite of the fact (they conveniently omitted) that these terms were used interchangeably elsewhere in the very same memo:

“Current County law has an exemption from the public accommodations law for ‘distinctly private or personal’ facilities.”

“The County Attorney’s Office concluded that Bill 23-07 as introduced would not require or prohibit restroom designation according to gender identity or biological gender (see memorandum on © 17). This means that an employer or other public facility provider could maintain and enforce current gender based restrictions on public facility use.”

The CRG always seems to forget about this exemption as well – and these facts certainly never made it onto their flyers and posters:

http://www.notmyshower.net/MCRG-Liberty-Lost-060408.pdf

http://www.notmyshower.net/MCRG-Poll-Time-Brochure-053108.pdf

I fail to see how you can claim that Zoe’s unabashed copying of CRG’s rhetorical techniques is a lie and then not conclude the same about the CRG’s fliers.

Peace,

Cynthia

P.S. Thanks for joining our conversation Zoe. I’m afraid you’ll find that much of the discussion here isn’t as intellectual as that I’ve seen on your site so far.

June 17, 2008 9:55 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Current county code does not explicitly force men (biological or otherwise) to use the men’s room or to NOT use the ladies’ room, much less impose fines for not using the “correct” restroom. Why wasn’t the CRG formed decades ago to correct laws that were so egregiously vague that it would allow biological males into little girls’ rooms?"

Because business owners made their own rules and policies. That kept bathrooms perfectly safe. No business would want a bad reputation. As has been pointed out to you and yours repeatedly, CRG doesn't favor government intervention here.

"What would stop a predator from going into the ladies’ room and just claiming “hey judge, there’s no law against me using that restroom,"

What would stop him is the management of the establishment. Refusal to abide by management's rules would constitute trespassing.

June 17, 2008 10:21 AM  
Blogger Emproph said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

June 17, 2008 10:24 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually, it's a burden for our entire society. Of course, there's an entire industry whose interest it is in to perpetuate racism so they can continue their mission of fighting it.

Ending all this is a good argument for electing Obama. Indeed, really the only one. He's probably the most liberal Presidential nominee from a major party since McGovern and yet even some conservatives are considering voting for him just so our country can turn a corner. Hereafter, elections will be colorblind and focus only on the candidates' views and qualifications, regardless of their race. But, for now, it's tempting to vote for the guy just summarily put the racism of our past behind us.

June 17, 2008 10:42 AM  
Blogger Emproph said...

Original comment that I deleted above:

Anonymous said...

“It's getting harder and harder to say that racial minorities have an insurmountable burden in our society”

How burdensome for you.

June 17, 2008 10:46 AM  
Blogger Emproph said...

"there's an entire industry whose interest it is in to perpetuate racism so they can continue their mission of fighting it."

So in addition to a nefarious gay agenda, there is also a nefarious racial agenda at play?

Do you feel that this racism-perpetuating industry consists of all races, or mostly just blacks?

June 17, 2008 11:03 AM  
Anonymous Robert said...

Jim

As entertaining as he can be, it may well be time to ban Anonymous. It's becomeing increasingly difficult to follow any meaningful conversation here; kind of like a Kindergarten discussion of comparative theology.

rrjr

June 17, 2008 11:23 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes, Jim...and he/she persistently, and sometimes even cruelly, uses demeaning put-downs of everybody who disagrees with him/her....hardly the stuff of intelligent, polite, meaningful discussion. It is quite apparent that your repeated pleadings with him/her to behave responsibly have fallen on deaf ears. I agree with rrjr...providing a soapbox for this troll has become tiresome and counterproductive for TTF's goal of educating our Montgomery County community on important issues. Ban him/her!
Diogenes

June 17, 2008 11:53 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

yes, you guys are right

this is getting embarassing

now people in Australia and California are finding how incompetent and illogical this local gay group has been

that can't be good!

June 17, 2008 12:02 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anybody go to the gay parade this weekend and have any sick stories to share?

The Post said there was some guy walking around wearing only unerpants and trying to harass bystanders into taking all their clothes off.

June 17, 2008 1:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Andrea- not anon
MN Anon- you are a liar. If you were at the Giant with me, you would have known that it was the creepy baseball cap guy who screamed at me,claimed he had a county permit to be on private property,threatened me and shoved me more than once. I never yelled once. So if you are the creepy baseball cap guy, you know the truth-either way, you are lying. Nothing new for you, is it? Theresa yelled at "Chris"- Theresa was confused as usual- it wasn't Chris I was to whom I was speaking. Pretty funny, a CRG supporter talking about dignity- something none of you know anything about at all.

June 17, 2008 3:12 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon's friends at the Westboro Baptist Church are at it again:

Outside [the Contra Costa County Clerk's office], three opponents of gay marriage from the Westboro Baptist Church picketed, carrying signs with sayings such as "God is your enemy."

Members of the sect are most often seen at military funerals in demonstrations claiming U.S. combat deaths are God's punishment for the nation's tolerance of homosexuality.

The protesters were easily outnumbered by about three dozen supporters of gay marriage, who held signs that read "Hate is not a family value" and "My marriage is not threatened by theirs, why is yours?" Police vehicles lined up near the demonstrators.

June 17, 2008 4:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Zoe said:
Note that they make no differentiation between post-operative transsexuals like the ones on the flyer, and others. The sex that the pediatrician assigned on the original birth certificate is all, and medical reality doesn't count for anything.

Zoe -- Please note that Montgomery County's Bill 23-07 makes NO differentiation between post-operative transsexuals like the ones on the flyer, and the others. In fact, the word "transgender" and "transsexual" don't appear anywhere in the bill! Does anyone not see this? I feel as if the bloggers here are ignoring the obvious -- the Emperor with No Clothes syndrome.

What the Montgomery County Council did in their definition of "gender identity" is tantamount to saying: "Let's pass a law that protects plumbers." And then, instead of writing a law that protects plumbers, they say: "this bill protects people who fix pipes, or those who perceive that they fix pipes, or those who dress like the people who fix pipes, or those who even contemplate that one day they may wish to fix pipes."

If I were a plumber, I'd be outraged -- just as transsexuals should be outraged at the County Council! Why they're not is beyond me.

Interested Reader

June 17, 2008 4:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"you would have known that it was the creepy baseball cap guy who screamed at me,claimed he had a county permit to be on private property"

I see. You were out there innocently trying to point out to him that he was not supposed to be there? What a saint! How you endure the persecution you get for your noble deeds, no one knows. He was out there blatantly exercising his rights as a citizen and you graciously pointed out that he had no right to do so. That's community service, right there!

Thank heaven it wasn't raining!

How, exactly, did he threaten you?

June 17, 2008 4:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Please note that Montgomery County's Bill 23-07 makes NO differentiation between post-operative transsexuals like the ones on the flyer, and the others. In fact, the word "transgender" and "transsexual" don't appear anywhere in the bill!"

This is the problem. It is arguable that some people have a medical condition where they don't have a clearly defined gender but this bill simply defines gender as whatever you consistently act like. If it didn't, it might not be so easy for CRG to argue that the law can be abused by predators. And is also another distinctive that seperates it from other laws around the country and thus invalidates TTF's arguments about the bill's effects around the country. This bill is singularly dangerous. There are no other bills like it.

June 17, 2008 5:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Singularly dangerous" is exactly right. And, in fact, in my post above, I was being too kind to the County Council with the plumber analogy when I wrote "those who fix pipes." At least that definition includes one definition of a plumber. Bill 23-07 contains NO definition of a transgender or transsexual. It's just a weird mish mash of purposeful confusion.

If I were a transsexual who had gone through an operation, I'd be completely embarrassed by the County Council's complete lack of respect for such a big and life changing decision and related actions. To state, as Bill 23-07 does, that making the sex change via an operation and therapy is of the same weight and importance of someone who simply switches their attire on any given day is ludicrous.

June 17, 2008 5:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In my last post, I meant to say that the County Council states that the Bill is for transgenders and transsexuals. The Bill doesn't state that at all. If that's the population that the County Council was trying to protect, then they needed to say so in their legislation.

Interested Reader

June 17, 2008 5:45 PM  
Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

Wow, Wyatt and Co. are now speaking out to protect me, telling us all just how concerned they are for people like me, rather than people who might pretend to be like me.

You clearly have no understanding of law in general, or these laws in particular. All the laws in this country which cover 40% of the population, and which cover the trans population, use the phrase "gender identity and expression," or some very similar variation. That is similar to the use of the term "sexual orientation" rather than "gay," or religion rather than Christian, or race rather than African-American.

And I thought you had all claimed to have read the law carefully. Apparently not.

And I, for one, am proud of the County Council.

June 17, 2008 8:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Andrea- not anon
MN Anon- You know nothing and you are a liar- a perfect score for a CRG supporter. I have told my story of what happened here on this blog. I don't have to prove or explain anything to something like you or the creeps you defend. You can tell your foolish lies and make remarks about me but I know what happened. The disdain of something like you is nothing to someone like me.

June 17, 2008 8:57 PM  
Blogger Zoe Brain said...

ZB,

I'm seeing the "brain" part. Is that some kind of sarcasm? Are a parody blogger?


Don't worry, I get that a lot. Actually, I *am* a Rocket Scientist, doing her PhD at the Australian National University. I headed the team making the on-board computer system for the most complex microsatellite ever launched, FedSat.

Most people on both Left and Right have difficulty believing I exist, so you're not alone.

That's because I'm an unreconstructed neo-con, a right-wing death b*tch, and a politblogger from way back.

I'm either Intersexed with a transsexual life history, or Transsexual with a really fascinatingly odd endocrine system.

The combination of the two causes cognitive dissonance: to the paleocon right, how can someone with such a strong record of right-leaning political discourse be TS? Their heads implode.

And those on the left have similar difficulty believing that someone who's TS could also be of the right.

That's why I find it so hilarious, the off-topic rants about Obama etc, the assumptions so many people make about me and others. This is a Right vs Wrong issue, not a Right vs Left one.

June 17, 2008 11:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"All the laws in this country which cover 40% of the population,"

dubious

"and which cover the trans population, use the phrase "gender identity and expression," or some very similar variation"

vague; "similar", in your opinion, or, perhaps, just your contention; turning gender into a club you join just by going through an initiation process of "expressing" is wacky

"I have told my story of what happened here on this blog. I don't have to prove or explain anything to something like you or the creeps you defend. You can tell your foolish lies and make remarks about me but I know what happened."

That happens alot. People remember things the way they want to. Your very presence at the place where signatures were being collected speaks for itself.

"Most people on both Left and Right have difficulty believing I exist, so you're not alone."

That's a relief. I'm not the only who thinks that when someone calls themself "The Brain", they may be insecure about their intelligence. Based on some of your comments here, I'm afraid your doubts may have some basis in fact.

June 18, 2008 6:08 AM  
Anonymous Aunt Bea said...

Your very presence at the place where signatures were being collected speaks for itself.

I thought both sides deserved to be heard in a democracy. Apparently Anon doesn't think so, she thinks only petition gatherers have a right to speak to the public, not supporters of the bill.

People remember things the way they want to. Your very presence at the place where signatures were being collected speaks for itself.

It does speak for itself and it illustrates democracy at work. Thank you Andrea for your commitment to democracy and for taking the time to present the non-haters' view of this bill to the public.

The facts as orignally reported of Andrea's day with the hate-filled cigarette-smoking petition signature gatherer at the Takoma Park Giant, complete with photographs, are found here.

someone calls themself "The Brain", they may be insecure about their intelligence.

Someone who can't pick a name and stick to it says a lot about their own sense of security. But by all means, keep commenting and pretending "the last Anon was not me" when you can't defend your remarks.

June 18, 2008 6:59 AM  
Anonymous svelte_brunette said...

Anonymous said:

“Singularly dangerous" is exactly right. And, in fact, in my post above, I was being too kind to the County Council with the plumber analogy when I wrote "those who fix pipes." At least that definition includes one definition of a plumber. Bill 23-07 contains NO definition of a transgender or transsexual. It's just a weird mish mash of purposeful confusion.”

Bill 23-07 doesn’t contain a definition of transgender or transsexual because it doesn’t need to. Gender Identity is something everyone in Montgomery County has, whether it is particularly feminine like Cher or not particularly feminine like Rosanne Barr. Transsexuals aren’t the only ones protected by 23-07, but arguably they have the most to gain from it given the attitudes a lot of people hold dear about them.

If hard-working waitress and Christian mom Pat decides to cut her hair short for the summer so she doesn’t get sweaty and sticky while watching her sons play baseball, and her boss decides to fire her because “she looks too much like a guy” and some of the customers “get confused,” 23-07 would give her some legal recourse to try and get her job back. (This assumes of course she followed all of the standards for attire her employer requires.)

Think this scenario is a bit too contrived? Check out the link below, it’s not too much different, and it actually happened: http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080605/cancer_fired_080605/20080605?hub=Canada

I can understand being uncomfortable about the gal’s short hair cut, but to FIRE someone ultimately because of their efforts to support cancer research is going a bit too far. Someone needs to get a clue about what’s important in life.

Bill 23-07 is designed to protect anyone and everyone in Montgomery County who may be discriminated against for any kind of gender non-conformity, not just transsexuals; that’s what’s so great about the law.

Peace,

Cynthia

June 18, 2008 8:35 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's getting harder and harder to say that racial minorities have an insurmountable burden in our society.

Naturally a GOP supporter like Anon would say such a thing. So tell us Anon, why did the Texas State GOP do this:

"At the Republican state convention, a booth hosted by Republicanmarket was selling a pin Saturday that says: If Obama is President will we still call it the White House.

June 18, 2008 5:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"At the Republican state convention, a booth hosted by Republicanmarket was selling a pin Saturday that says: If Obama is President will we still call it the White House."

Not nice, obviously, but hardly an "insurmountable burden". We got to stop thinking that the government's job os to make everyone nice.

Also, the story doesn't sound very believable.

June 19, 2008 12:12 AM  
Blogger Zoe Brain said...

I'm not the only who thinks that when someone calls themself "The Brain", they may be insecure about their intelligence. Based on some of your comments here, I'm afraid your doubts may have some basis in fact.

Ummm... it's the surname on my original birth certificate. Anyone with two neurons to fire consecutively would have at least googled my name, before beclowning themselves so spectacularly with a remark like that....

June 19, 2008 1:06 AM  
Anonymous Hazumu Osaragi said...

Shout-out (the yank kind,) to Zoe for dropping by and providing her usual, tightly-reasoned postings. A few posters have seen an opening in the name 'Brain', suggesting it is the nom de plume invention of a poster who hides behind it to wield sarcasm as a weapon. No, that's her real name, as a trivial google search would reveal.

I, 'Hazumu Osaragi', am the one wielding the 2x4 of sarcasm from behind a nom de plume. Please make a note of it.

JimK, Dr. Beyer, and other TTF luminaries; I salute you for supporting free speech and the first amendment right of your opponents to post the most vile, hate-filled drivel. Were we to post at their site, our comments would almost certainly be 'accidentally' 'eaten' by the server.

I'd like to have a plug-in to Firefox that would disemvowel any posts with a list of misspellings that are common to the spittle-spewing FundeVangelist Reich, such as 'alot' for 'a lot', and other common catch-phrases -- and ad-hominem attack words, even though that will mean missing a few good posts from the side I'm rooting for. As a consumer, I'd like to be a bit discerning in which posts I find worthwhile to read. Zoe, is this something that is easily code-able? As a transwoman, the root topic is near and dear to my heart, but the signal-to-noise ratio is annoying...

Yours;

Hazumu

June 19, 2008 1:14 AM  
Blogger Emproph said...

“Not nice, obviously, but hardly an "insurmountable burden". We got to stop thinking that the government's job os to make everyone nice.”

Except, dear, we’re not talking about “Not nice.”

In this case, we’re talking about government sanctioned racism. Which, regardless of the veracity of the story, you just defended.

June 19, 2008 4:03 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Also, the story doesn't sound very believable.

The comments posted in response to that Dallas Morning News article you don't find believable were quite interesting.

-The Republicans are showing their true colors.

-This is disgusting. The fact that the GOP convention tolerated this says it all. It's pathetic that these idiots can even claim the "patriotic" label.

-In a dozen words, this button perfectly summarizes the Republican Party.

-Talk about chickens coming home to roost (if the racism that runs rampant in the Republican party ever actually left).

All they have to peddle is hate and war - both of which they seem to just adore.

-It would seem that this pin is yet one more indication that the Republican Party is filled with disgraceful racists.

Why am I not surprised?

-GOPsers always were racist. In fact, they hate everything and everyone. No surprise here...

-Racism? In MY Texas GOP?

-Gee, what a shock. And the main stream media is where on this? Nowhere to be heard. don't tell me that ABC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC, NBC or the wire services weren't at that convention.

-Some things never change. Uneducated cowards who are afraid of their own shadows - The GOP base.

-Now I understand why the Dixie Chicks had a Republic Party fatwah imposed on them. These extremists actually call themselves Republicans. Goldwater must be turning over in his grave!

-I'm so glad I left Texas. This style of attack should surprise no one. Here's to the Bush-i-fication of the Lone Star State and some of this country.

-The fact that this is not being blasted on the airwaves is a testament to the lack of shock that something like this would occur at the Texas GOP convention

This is what the Republican party is. It always has been THIS - but was very successful in disguising it's true objectives in order to be palatable to the main stream. Their act is no longer working and they have no idea how to 'fake the funk' anymore.

-If this WERE reported on the MSM, it would most likely be "inadvertently" connected to a Democratic State Convention. It seems whenever a Republican is embroiled in any number of Republican-patented scandals they are always "mislabeled" as Democrats.

-This obviously racist button also makes me think of the FoxNews program that called Michelle Obama a "baby mama." Racist pure and simple, yet noone is really held accountable. Its the nappy-headed ho moment for FoxNews and noone seems to care.

-Republicans = fear, hate, bigotry, greed, greed, and more greed. They don't care about the people they pander to yet they are constantly supported by said people. Why is that?


And then there's this comment, that provides some interesting information:

Try going to RepublicanMarket.com and look at the products they are selling. These guys are clearly not Democratic operatives.

The button collection is particularly telling. Some gems include:
"Life's a bitch. Don't vote for one." with a picture of Hillary.

"I still hate Commies even after they changed their name to Liberals".

"KFC Liberal Special: 2 Fat Thighs, 2 Small Breasts, . . . Left Wing".

"Republican women like MEN".

and the completely unoriginal
"Somewhere in Arkansas, a village is missing its idiot".


Anon will love the Abstinence button.

June 19, 2008 8:24 AM  
Blogger Emproph said...

“Talk about chickens coming home to roost (if the racism that runs rampant in the Republican party ever actually left).”

LOLOLOLROFLMAO

Oh mercy, thank you for that one, and for the links too!

You guys have to check out these buttons pages. Some of them are really clever. Like this classy juxtaposition:

Vote For John So The Country Doesn’t Go Down One.

It’s an orgy of stereotypical Republican mindset. You really have to see these for yourself.

June 19, 2008 11:28 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My pleasure, Emproph. Good eye noticing the Buttons Pages. They very clearly demonstrate how conflicted conservatives are.

One button says

"Love (heart) a liberal, have it spayed (spade)"

and the very next button says

"Guns don't kill people, abortion clinics do."

You'd think these people would all be in favor of abortion rights since only liberals would avail themselves of such a service. I mean no self-respecting "Proud, Republican, American, Christians" would ever do such a thing. Keeping abortion safe and legal means pro-life conservatives would outnumber pro-choice liberals in no time, assuring their lock on elective office.

me

June 19, 2008 3:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

the story doesn't sound very believable.

Here you go Anon. Listen to Hans Klinger of the GOP in Texas apologize for the vendor's button and say that "bigotry of any kind should not be tolerated."

me

June 20, 2008 8:29 AM  

Post a Comment

<< Home