Monday, May 21, 2012

Spitzer in the NYT


The New York Times had an article this weekend that was unprecedented.  It was a long article about how a shabby piece of research was published, and an apology by the researcher for the consequences of it.

If you go to PFOX's web site you will see, on the right-hand side of their screen a little video of Robert Spitzer suggesting that people can change their sexual orientation.  His 2003 study, published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior, has been the one and only shred of justification for "ex-gays" to claim scientific support for their dangerous and nutty view that people can stop being gay through prayer, therapy, and/or willpower.

Of course there was controversy, and Spitzer endured it with a stiff upper lip, but as this NYT piece demonstrates, he has finally decided to honestly admit that the research was not well done, should not have been published in the scientific literature, and that there is no evidence that people can actually change their sexual orientation.  And he's sorry.

It is a long article.  I will quote the lede first, then skip through to the good parts:
PRINCETON, N.J. — The simple fact was that he had done something wrong, and at the end of a long and revolutionary career it didn’t matter how often he’d been right, how powerful he once was, or what it would mean for his legacy.

Dr. Robert L. Spitzer, considered by some to be the father of modern psychiatry, lay awake at 4 o’clock on a recent morning knowing he had to do the one thing that comes least naturally to him.

He pushed himself up and staggered into the dark. His desk seemed impossibly far away; Dr. Spitzer, who turns 80 next week, suffers from Parkinson’s disease and has trouble walking, sitting, even holding his head upright.

The word he sometimes uses to describe these limitations — pathetic — is the same one that for decades he wielded like an ax to strike down dumb ideas, empty theorizing and junk studies.

Now here he was at his computer, ready to recant a study he had done himself, a poorly conceived 2003 investigation that supported the use of so-called reparative therapy to “cure” homosexuality for people strongly motivated to change.

What to say? The issue of gay marriage was rocking national politics yet again. The California State Legislature was debating a bill to ban the therapy outright as being dangerous. A magazine writer who had been through the therapy as a teenager recently visited his house, to explain how miserably disorienting the experience was.

And he would later learn that a World Health Organization report, released on Thursday, calls the therapy “a serious threat to the health and well-being — even the lives — of affected people.”

Dr. Spitzer’s fingers jerked over the keys, unreliably, as if choking on the words. And then it was done: a short letter to be published this month, in the same journal where the original study appeared.

“I believe,” it concludes, “I owe the gay community an apology.”

Psychiatry Giant Sorry for Backing Gay ‘Cure’
The article describes why and how the study was conducted -- phone interviews with people who said they had changed.  It also explains how this study, which is obviously methodologically substandard, came to be published.
The study had serious problems. It was based on what people remembered feeling years before — an often fuzzy record. It included some ex-gay advocates, who were politically active. And it did not test any particular therapy; only half of the participants engaged with a therapist at all, while the others worked with pastoral counselors, or in independent Bible study.

Several colleagues tried to stop the study in its tracks, and urged him not to publish it, Dr. Spitzer said.

Yet, heavily invested after all the work, he turned to a friend and former collaborator, Dr. Kenneth J. Zucker, psychologist in chief at the Center for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto and editor of the Archives of Sexual Behavior, another influential journal.

“I knew Bob and the quality of his work, and I agreed to publish it,” Dr. Zucker said in an interview last week. The paper did not go through the usual peer-review process, in which unnamed experts critique a manuscript before publication. “But I told him I would do it only if I also published commentaries” of response from other scientists to accompany the study, Dr. Zucker said.

Those commentaries, with a few exceptions, were merciless. One cited the Nuremberg Code of ethics to denounce the study as not only flawed but morally wrong. “We fear the repercussions of this study, including an increase in suffering, prejudice, and discrimination,” concluded a group of 15 researchers at the New York State Psychiatric Institute, where Dr. Spitzer was affiliated.
This is an indictment of the journal as much as anything.  Why did they publish the paper without peer review?  Of course the researcher's reputation is important but it should never allow them to short-circuit the review process of a scientific journal.
But Dr. Spitzer could not control how his study was interpreted by everyone, and he could not erase the biggest scientific flaw of them all, roundly attacked in many of the commentaries: Simply asking people whether they have changed is no evidence at all of real change. People lie, to themselves and others. They continually change their stories, to suit their needs and moods.

By almost any measure, in short, the study failed the test of scientific rigor that Dr. Spitzer himself was so instrumental in enforcing for so many years.

“As I read these commentaries, I knew this was a problem, a big problem, and one I couldn’t answer,” Dr. Spitzer said. “How do you know someone has really changed?”
It is one thing to persuade yourself that your sexual orientation has changed.  People are sometimes able to maintain the belief for years.  They may show every outward sign of having changed, and how are you going to prove it one way or the other?  There are very many more ex-ex-gays than ex-gays, as the self-deception evaporates over time.
The study that seemed at the time a mere footnote to a large life was growing into a chapter. And it needed a proper ending — a strong correction, directly from its author, not a journalist or colleague.

A draft of the letter has already leaked online and has been reported.

“You know, it’s the only regret I have; the only professional one,” Dr. Spitzer said of the study, near the end of a long interview. “And I think, in the history of psychiatry, I don’t know that I’ve ever seen a scientist write a letter saying that the data were all there but were totally misinterpreted. Who admitted that and who apologized to his readers.”
The letter to the editor of the Archives of Sexual Behavior has been posted at Truth Wins Out.  It says:
Several months ago I told you that because of my revised view of my 2001 study of reparative therapy changing sexual orientation, I was considering writing something that would acknowledge that I now judged the major critiques of the study as largely correct. After discussing my revised view of the study with Gabriel Arana, a reporter for American Prospect, and with Malcolm Ritter, an Associated Press science writer, I decided that I had to make public my current thinking about the study. Here it is.

Basic Research Question. From the beginning it was: “can some version of reparative therapy enable individuals to change their sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual?” Realizing that the study design made it impossible to answer this question, I suggested that the study could be viewed as answering the question, “how do individuals undergoing reparative therapy describe changes in sexual orientation?” – a not very interesting question.

The Fatal Flaw in the Study – There was no way to judge the credibility of subject reports of change in sexual orientation. I offered several (unconvincing) reasons why it was reasonable to assume that the subject’s reports of change were credible and not self-deception or outright lying. But the simple fact is that there was no way to determine if the subject’s accounts of change were valid.

I believe I owe the gay community an apology for my study making unproven claims of the efficacy of reparative therapy. I also apologize to any gay person who wasted time and energy undergoing some form of reparative therapy because they believed that I had proven that reparative therapy works with some “highly motivated” individuals.

Robert Spitzer. M.D.
Emeritus Professor of Psychiatry,
Columbia University
This is a remarkable statement.  Unfortunately it will not put Humpty Dumpty back together again.  Even though the author has renounced it, PFOX and other anti-gay groups will continue to point to the published research as evidence that people can stop being gay if they choose.

35 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

According to the article: "Simply asking people whether they have changed is no evidence at all of real change. People lie, to themselves and others. They continually change their stories, to suit their needs and moods."

I assume this means that people lie about being gay and transgender too.

May 21, 2012 1:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You don't get it. If any condition is based on the brain's feeling about something, the feelings can change. I liked apple pie as a kid, but don't like apple pie now. Just like the Dr. found in the Transgender article, 80% of the time these kids changed back to their born gender feelings. Maybe we should call homosexuals and transgenders the flip-flop people!

May 21, 2012 1:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"There was no way to judge the credibility of subject reports of change in sexual orientation."

I've argued this same point many times and the response from TTFers is to act like it's an inane point.

Glad to see you now agree that there is no way to prove whether someone is telling the truth about their sexual preferences and, thus, no studies in this area are scientifically valid.

Now, I expect TTF to do the right thing and advocate revealing this truth to students as part of the curriculum in MCPS.

Right now, the impression given by the curriulum is that science has verified the gay agenda.

May 21, 2012 1:54 PM  
Anonymous David S. Fishback said...

In 2003, Dr. Spitzer did not say that conversion therapies were generally effective, but did say that "some highly motivated individuals" appeared to have changed their sexual orientation.

While it was clear to anyone familiar with would makes a valid survey that Dr. Spitzer's 2003 article was fundamentally flawed -- as a pediatrician who was a member of the Board of Education's Citizens Advisory Committee convincing explained to her colleagues in 2004 -- the conversion therapy advocates have held fast to it as the only fig leaf they had to support their views.

Now even that fig leaf -- as scant as it was -- is gone.

May 21, 2012 2:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

this may be Obama's Dana Beyer moment

Beyer, you may remember, never recovered from the allegations of ethics violations after trying, as an key employee of the County Council, to prevent people from signing a petition for a referendum on the County Council's pro-gay bill by telliung them the petition was illegal

similarly, Obama ignores constitutionally guaranteed freedom of religion and tries to force Catholics to give out free birth control pills

"NEW YORK — Dozens of Roman Catholic dioceses, schools and other institutions sued the Obama administration Monday over a government mandate requiring most employers to provide birth control coverage as part of their employee health plans.

The lawsuits filed in federal courts around the country represent the largest push against the mandate since President Barack Obama announced the policy in January. Among those suing are the University of Notre Dame, the Archdioceses of Washington, New York and Michigan, and the Catholic University of America.

"We have tried negotiation with the administration and legislation with the Congress, and we'll keep at it, but there's still no fix," said New York Cardinal Timothy Dolan, president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. "Time is running out, and our valuable ministries and fundamental rights hang in the balance, so we have to resort to the courts now."

The U.S. Health and Human Services Department adopted the rule to improve health care for women. Last year, an advisory panel from the Institute of Medicine, appointed by Obama, recommended including birth control on the list of covered services, partly because it promotes maternal and child health by allowing women to space their pregnancies.

However, faith leaders from across religious traditions protested, saying the mandate violates religious freedom."

Americans won't stand for it

May 21, 2012 3:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Now even that fig leaf -- as scant as it was -- is gone."

to my knowledge, he hasn't said that any data was falsified in the study

and the methodology of the study was fully explained

the only thing that has changed is that an elderly and feeble fellow has changed his interpretation to try to curry favor with the politically correct crowd

the validity of the study remains

sorry, Charlie

May 21, 2012 3:06 PM  
Anonymous Robert said...

I accept Dr. Spitzer's apology for what it's worth.

It's worth noting that in the changes made to the DSM in 1973, Spitzer introduced the (billable) category of "ego-dystonic homosexuality." Reparative therapists and psycho-analysts could "diagnose" their subjects with that, thus billing for efforts to change sexual orientation. It was the label applied to me. Not until many years later was that removed from the diagnostic manual.

One of the "big lies" of the reorientationists use of Spitzer's study, and one he allowed them to make, was that he was an lgbt activist converted to belief in reorientation "treatments." In fact, from the beginning, he was a leading proponent of such.

He owes us an apology for creating a false study to justify what was essentially a political statment on his part, not simply for having misunderstood how his research would be used.

rrjr

May 21, 2012 3:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Cornel West criticized President Barack Obama, saying he's "obsessed with being on Mount Rushmore" and is focusing too much on his "legacy."

“I think at this point he’s obsessed with being on Mount Rushmore, he wants to be a great figure in the pantheon of American presidents," West said. “If you’re thinking about Mount Rushmore, you’re thinking about your legacy, your legacy, your legacy. Puh-lease.”

The famed civil rights activist and scholar also said he has a "very, very deep disagreement" with the foreign policy "Obama is promoting."

May 21, 2012 3:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"He owes us an apology for creating a false study to justify what was essentially a political statment on his part,"

he didn't make any false statements so it would be insane for him to apologize

May 21, 2012 3:41 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Gay Rights In America: Gays May Have Fastest Of All Civil Rights Movements

Los Angeles Times

In 1958, the Gallup Poll asked Americans whether they approved or disapproved of marriage between blacks and whites. The response was overwhelming: 94% were opposed, a sentiment that held for decades. It took nearly 40 years until a majority of those surveyed said marriage between people of different skin colors was acceptable.

By contrast, attitudes toward gays and lesbians have changed so much in just the last 10 years that, as Gallup reported last week, "half or more now agree that being gay is morally acceptable, that gay relations ought to be legal and that gay or lesbian couples should have the right to legally marry." (In 1996, when Gallup first asked about legalizing same-sex marriage, 68% of Americans were opposed.)"

May 21, 2012 10:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

the gay movement has little in common with the sixties

at that time, there was a rising commitment to shed the past and moving on to a new era

what's going on now is nothing like that

people don't really care enough to resist and just want to shut gay lunatic fringe advocates up

people are just sick of hearing about it

of course, few people who feel that way will bother to vote about it

but they will answer a pollster's question

if, and when, any state's voters approve gay "marriage" do let us know

of course, since it unconsitutional in three-fifths of the states, most will require more than a majority to change their constitutions

inconvenient fact alert

May 21, 2012 11:51 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Last year, in the same Gallup Poll, 53% of Americans said the approved. This year, it's 50%.

Downward trend.

May 22, 2012 8:02 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"if, and when, any state's voters approve gay "marriage" do let us know"

Here you go:

Arizona Proposition 107 was a proposed same-sex marriage ban, put before voters by ballot initiative in the 2006 General Election. If passed, it would have prohibited the state of Arizona from recognizing same-sex marriages or civil unions. The state currently has a statute defining marriage as union between a man and a woman. It also prevents recognition of same-sex marriages performed elsewhere.

This proposed amendment to the Arizona Constitution got 48.2% of the vote with 51.8% voting against, making Arizona the only U.S. state to vote down a state marriage amendment.

May 22, 2012 8:11 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ROFL

that's not exactly approving gay "marriage" when it is already against the law there

it just a slender minority saying it doesn't feel they need to amend the state Constitution at that point

good try though

May 22, 2012 8:25 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Enjoy the H8 like you did before Loving v. Virginia was decided.

The times they are a changin'

May 22, 2012 9:21 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

the sad thing is that you really believe that defining marriage correctly is hatred

do the laws that don't allow incestual marriage represent hatred in your imaginary world too?

has all of world history, up until some future date that you believe will soon dawn, represented a hate- filled nightmare?

next year at this time, the first gay President will be a trivia question at the local bar on Tuesday nights

do you know how many Catholics there are in the swing states of Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida?

did you know the Catholic church has sued Obama for violating their constitutional right to freedom of religion?

did you know the Cathlolic church has declared a special period of reflection during June and July asking parishioners to think and pray about the relationship between church and state?

Barack Obama, who doesn't know a lot about politics, isn't aware that there are two groups in America you don't tick off: religious Catholics and Jews

both are small in number but have broad influence because of their concentration in large and swing states, and their commitment and solidarity

Obama has ticked off both groups

"WASHINGTON -- Former Secretary of State Colin Powell is declining to renew the endorsement he gave Barack Obama four years ago, when he called Obama "a transformational figure."

Pressed in a network interview to say whether he's backing Obama, the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff demurred Tuesday.

Powell says Obama should have spent more time on the economy.

He also said he should have closed the Guantanamo Bay detention center. "I would have closed that rapidly." said Powell.

Powell called Mitt Romney a very viable candidate."

May 22, 2012 11:09 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

OMG...completely awesome! The homos are taking over the world. Here is an example of their "agenda":
"he (Spitzer) would later learn that a World Health Organization report, released on Thursday, calls the therapy “a serious threat to the health and well-being — even the lives — of affected people.”
Whatevewr happened to the credo of "live and let live" or "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"?
Our resident Troll Anonymous is on the wrong side of history.

May 22, 2012 11:43 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Whatevewr happened to the credo of "live and let live" or "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"?"

the ones violating these principles are gay lunatic fringe advocates

when someone wants to rid themselves of same gender attraction, these lunatics can't just "live and let live"

they want to make damn sure such a person does not have any option to pursue that

they want to make sure everyone in their miserable condition stays that way and they want the PR boost of saying that there is no way to change because then they can say their mental state is actually a physical condition and they can get special privileges as a protected class

to achieve this, they are willing to steal the freedom of others

doesn't sound like doing unto others what they would have them do unto them

May 22, 2012 2:16 PM  
Blogger Priya Lynn said...

Bad anonymous said "According to the article: "Simply asking people whether they have changed is no evidence at all of real change. People lie, to themselves and others. They continually change their stories, to suit their needs and moods."

I assume this means that people lie about being gay and transgender too.".

That is a faulty assumption but perfectly in keeping with your history of ignorance and bias.

There has historically been tremendous stigma and oppression associated with being gay or transgender, tremendous pressure to conform to gender stereotypes, and no stigma or oppression associated with being heterosexual or accepting of one's biological gender - the incentive to lie goes in only one direction, people are motivated to lie and claim they are heterosexual and not transgendered when they are gay or transgendered, but no one is motivated to lie and claim they are gay or transgendered when they are not. There is no reason to doubt people who admit to being a characteristic widely perceived as undesirable, but there is much reason to doubt those who've had same sex attractions and later claim they are now fully memmbers of the socially approved and desirable sexuality.

Bad anonymous said "You don't get it. If any condition is based on the brain's feeling about something, the feelings can change. I liked apple pie as a kid, but don't like apple pie now.".

Not true. Despite decades of highly motivated people desperate to change their sexual orientation there's never been any proof that anyone has done so, overwhelming evidence that none have, and tellingly none of those claiming to have changed has been willing to put it to a penile plethysmograph, no lie MRI or some such objective test. There is no comparing one's like or dislike of apple pie with powerful sexual and romantic desires.

Bad anonymous said "Just like the Dr. found in the Transgender article, 80% of the time these kids changed back to their born gender feelings. Maybe we should call homosexuals and transgenders the flip-flop people.

Actually the article said there is only anecdotal evidence and scant research that suggests anything of the sort -one doctor's anecdotal guesstimate means very little. Just as there are many people who are attracted to both genders and often decide because of social pressure to only allow themselves heterosexual relationships there are transgendered children that may feel more or less strongly about being born in the wrong body and decide due to social pressure to conform and live as their birth gender. The transgendered feelings haven't changed in the slightest, only the person's willingness to suppress their sense of self has changed.

May 22, 2012 3:20 PM  
Blogger Priya Lynn said...

Good anonymous said "Whatevewr happened to the credo of "live and let live" or "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"?"

Bad anonymous in broken english said "the ones violating these principles are gay lunatic fringe advocates when someone wants to rid themselves of same gender attraction, these lunatics can't just "live and let live"".

It is bigots like you that won't live and let live. No one wants to change their sexual orientation solely to be heterosexual, the change in orientation is a means to an end, not an end in itself. People want to change their sexual orientation as a means to avoid the stigma, oppression, discrimination, and threat of eternal torture bigots like you torment them with. Take away this societal abuse and no one wants to change their sexual orientation.

The live and let live philosophy demands that society stop tormenting people for being gay and transgendered. Allowing people to coerce gays into shame therapy is the opposite of live and let live. Society needs to let people live with the fact that they are okay as they are.

May 22, 2012 3:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Roman Catholic hierarchy’s claim that its religious freedom is being violated by new health-care regulations is bogus.

The bishops yesterday orchestrated a slew of lawsuits to attack an Obama administration regulation requiring health insurance companies to provide no-copay birth control to employees who want it.

Houses of worship are exempt from the mandate, but the bishops are trying to deny birth control coverage for employees at Catholic-affiliated institutions such as hospitals and colleges as well. They even want an exemption to cover secular businesses owned by Catholics.

Catholic colleges, hospitals and social-service agencies receive massive amounts of taxpayer support. They serve and hire many non-Catholics. The bishops should not be permitted to use taxpayer-supported, quasi-public institutions as vehicles to impose their doctrines on birth control.

The vast majority of American Catholics consider the bishops’ stand on contraceptives to be outdated and unrealistic, and they ignore it.

May 22, 2012 7:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"WASHINGTON — Former US secretary of State Colin Powell had praise but no endorsement Tuesday for President Barack Obama, saying he plans to "keep my powder dry" as he weighs whom to back in November's election.

Powell, himself once was widely touted as a prospect for the White House, and who endorsed Obama in 2008's presidential race as a "transformational figure," said the president by-and-large has lived up to that billing.

"There are some things that he has done I wish he had not done. For example, leave Guantanamo open. I would have closed that rapidly. He tried. He was stopped by Congress," Powell told NBC's "Today Show" program.

"He stabilized the financial system. He brought about a stability in the economy. He fixed the auto industry.

"I think he took us out -- not completely out -- but he took us out of the most difficult problem we were facing at that time, which was an economy that was collapsing. And it's improving, but not fast enough."

"He tried. He was stopped by Congress."

May 22, 2012 7:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The Roman Catholic hierarchy’s claim that its religious freedom is being violated by new health-care regulations is bogus"

actually, everyone's freedom has been violated by Obamacare but it will likely be declared unconstitutional within the next month or so

what is bogus is that any business, religious or not, should be required to offer health plans that cover birth control

birth control is not expensive and pregnancy is not a disease

"The bishops yesterday orchestrated a slew of lawsuits to attack an Obama administration regulation requiring health insurance companies to provide no-copay birth control to employees who want it"

since they consider birth control a violation of their religious beliefs, they shouldn't be forced to provide it

all Obama needs is a turkey leg and he could be the next Henry VIII

"Houses of worship are exempt from the mandate, but the bishops are trying to deny birth control coverage for employees at Catholic-affiliated institutions such as hospitals and colleges as well. They even want an exemption to cover secular businesses owned by Catholics"

worthy religions aren't only practiced by clergy

"Catholic colleges, hospitals and social-service agencies receive massive amounts of taxpayer support"

actually, they provide services the government would otherwise have to provide, and at greater efficiency

"They serve and hire many non-Catholics. The bishops should not be permitted to use taxpayer-supported, quasi-public institutions as vehicles to impose their doctrines on birth control."

these poor, victimized employess would still be able to get birth control

it's cheap and, besides, Planned Parenthood already gives it away

if the government is that worried, they could simply provide free birth control to any employees of Catholics

"The vast majority of American Catholics consider the bishops’ stand on contraceptives to be outdated and unrealistic, and they ignore it"

however, they still believe no one should be forced to provide something that violates their religious convictions

"WASHINGTON — Former US secretary of State Colin Powell had praise but no endorsement Tuesday for President Barack Obama.

Powell, himself once was widely touted as a prospect for the White House, and who endorsed Obama in 2008's presidential race as a "transformational figure," said the president by-and-large has lived up to that billing.

"He stabilized the financial system. He brought about a stability in the economy. He fixed the auto industry.

"I think he took us out -- not completely out -- but he took us out of the most difficult problem we were facing at that time, which was an economy that was collapsing. And it's improving."

"He tried. He was stopped by Congress."

makes you wonder why he's not endorsing Obama

maybe he's heard he wasn't born in America

that's what the bio for his first book said

May 22, 2012 10:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"the incentive to lie goes in only one direction, people are motivated to lie and claim they are heterosexual and not transgendered when they are gay or transgendered, but no one is motivated to lie and claim they are gay or transgendered when they are not. There is no reason to doubt people who admit to being a characteristic widely perceived as undesirable, but there is much reason to doubt those who've had same sex attractions and later claim they are now fully memmbers of the socially approved and desirable sexuality"

this is simplistic and reminiscient of when Jim used to claim that peer review was infallible because scientists are competitive and will always try to shoot down a research paper if they can

it's not that easy and making the assumption that nasty Priya does is not scientific

"Not true. Despite decades of highly motivated people desperate to change their sexual orientation there's never been any proof that anyone has done so,"

according to Spitzer, there can't be

it's subjective and you can't tell if people are telling the truth

"overwhelming evidence that none have,"

overwhelming?

there is NO such evidence

"and tellingly none of those claiming to have changed has been willing to put it to a penile plethysmograph, no lie MRI or some such objective test"

that's funny because TTF usually says no one makes that claim, so how could non-existent people undergo these tests?

"There is no comparing one's like or dislike of apple pie with powerful sexual and romantic desires"

psychiatrists consider both hunger and sexual derire to be basic needs

the comparison is excellent

"It is bigots like you that won't live and let live. No one wants to change their sexual orientation solely to be heterosexual, the change in orientation is a means to an end, not an end in itself. People want to change their sexual orientation as a means to avoid the stigma, oppression, discrimination, and threat of eternal torture bigots like you torment them with. Take away this societal abuse and no one wants to change their sexual orientation."

you're making an assumption

you have no basis for this statement

"The live and let live philosophy demands that society stop tormenting people for being gay and transgendered"

there is no "torment" occurring

"Allowing people to coerce gays into shame therapy is the opposite of live and let live"

there is no place where adults are being coerced into reparative therapy

if there were, we'd all oppose it

entering therapy is choice made freely and gay lunatic fringers want to take this choice away and tell people they may not seek help

"Society needs to let people live with the fact that they are okay as they are"

I think you have something in your eye

May 22, 2012 10:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Barack Obama continues to display impressive support from his party

yesterday, he got a whopping 60% of the votes in the Democratic primary in Arkansas and, in Kentucky, "uncommitted" could only get 42% against the Obama juggernaut

of course, a couple of weeks ago, Obama held a convict from Texas to a mere 40% of the vote in the West Virginia Democratice primary

also, in swing state Pennsylvania, legislation will be introduced today to defund Planned Parenthood

and the Obama administration continues to attack the Constitution with an aggressive campaign to attempt to intimidate John Roberts into upholding Obamacare

how can Romney sleep at night?

May 23, 2012 6:56 AM  
Anonymous svelte_brunette said...

Anon asked:

“how can Romney sleep at night?”

He must have seen Karl Rove’s latest electoral college map (shown on Adam Sorensen's column at Time(dot)com):

Obama: 284 votes
Romney: 172 votes
Toss-ups: 82

Sweet dreams!

Cynthia

May 23, 2012 8:56 AM  
Anonymous Romneyignoramous said...

"WASHINGTON -- Former Secretary of State Colin Powell on Wednesday questioned Mitt Romney's choice in foreign policy advisers, saying that some are so right-wing that the advice they give deserves "second thought."

"I don't know who all of his advisers are, but I've seen some of the names and some of them are quite far to the right. And sometimes they might be in a position to make judgments or recommendations to the candidate that should get a second thought," Powell said during an appearance on MSNBC's "Morning Joe."

He gave the example of Romney recently saying that Russia is the "number one geopolitical foe" to the United States.

"Come on Mitt, think," Powell said. "That isn't the case."

[Maybe Romney will pick Palin for his VP, the Dumb and Dumber ticket.]

Romney's team of about 40 foreign policy advisers includes many who hail from the neoconservative wing of the party, according to a May analysis conducted by the The Nation. Many were enthusiastic supporters of the Iraq War, and many are proponents of a U.S. or Israeli attack on Iran.

[VOA: UN Nuclear Chief Sees Deal ‘Soon’ With Iran on Inspections; Bloomberg: Oil Drops On Iran’s Agreement To Allow Nuclear Inspectors]

Powell, a retired four-star general and the only African American to have ever served on the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said he didn't know whether Romney really believes that Russia is the biggest threat to the U.S. or if his advisers told him to say that. "I don't know," he said when asked by "Morning Joe" hosts. "You ask him."

Powell hasn't signaled yet whom he plans to endorse in this election cycle. He broke with his party to support President Barack Obama in 2008, but he stayed mum when asked this week if he planned to do the same this time around. White House spokesman Jay Carney said Tuesday that Obama "appreciated" Powell's endorsement in 2008 and gave reasons why he should back Obama again.

Powell noted Wednesday that Romney has been "catching a lot of heck" from mainstream figures in the Republican foreign affairs community who he said "were kind of taken aback" by Romney's Russia claims.

"Look at the world. There is no pure competitor of the United States of America," he said. "All the problems we talk about in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran ... they count about 700 million people in a world of seven billion. What are the rest of them doing? They're increasing their economies, they're building wealth, they're educating their kids, they're building their infrastructure. That's what we need to be doing." "

May 23, 2012 12:46 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

WaPost Poll: Gay Marriage Opposition at Record Low

"Opposition to gay marriage is sinking in the wake of President Barack Obama’s endorsement of same-sex unions, with a new Washington Post-ABC News poll [WaPo: After President Obama’s announcement, opposition to same-sex marriage hits record low] showing a record low of 39 percent believe gay marriage should be illegal.

The poll found that 53 percent, also a new record high for the Post poll, believe gay marriage should be legal. Just six years ago only 36 percent thought same-sex unions should be legal.

The poll also found that 59 percent of African-Americans now support gay marriage, up from an average of 41 percent in previous polls.

Obama endorsed same-sex marriage two weeks ago.

“By speaking in very personal terms about his own journey, the president has helped to build a larger and stronger majority in support of full equality for committed gay and lesbian couples,” Fred Sainz, a spokesman for the Human Right Campaign, told the Post.

Of those surveyed, 71 percent said they had a friend, family member, or acquaintance who is gay.

In 2010 that number was 63 percent and in 1998 it was 59 percent. The poll, which surveyed 1,004 adults from May 17 to 20, also found that most Americans say Obama’s position on gay marriage will not play a big role in the November elections."

May 23, 2012 1:42 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Arizona Secretary of State apologizes for embarrassing state with birther questions

May 23, 2012 2:30 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous said: "The vast majority of American Catholics consider the bishops’ stand on contraceptives to be outdated and unrealistic, and they ignore it."

From FactCheck.Org

"Catholics are slightly more likely to get an abortion than Protestants, according to a 2000-2001 survey."

The survey, the latest conducted by the Alan Guttmacher Institute, was completed by more than 10,000 women. Staffers in hospitals, clinics and physicians’ offices where abortions are performed distributed the questionnaire. The Guttmacher Institute, which researches sexual and reproductive health worldwide, says it used the survey data along with data on the number of abortions performed nationally to estimate abortion rates and the size of certain demographic groups. The institute found that more Protestant women obtained abortions than Catholics: Forty-three percent of women over age 17 in the 2000-2001 survey said they were Protestant, while 27 percent said they were Catholic. But Catholics were more likely to get an abortion: The abortion rate for Catholic women was 22 per 1,000women; the rate for Protestants was 18 per 1,000 women, according to study author Rachel K. Jones.

Overall, 78 percent of women said they had a religious affiliation. (Besides those who marked that they were "Catholic" and "Protestant," 8 percent said they belonged to “other” religions.) And the remaining 22 percent said they had no religious affiliation. Guttmacher also reported that 13 percent said they were evangelical or “born-again,” and three-fourths of those had identified themselves as Protestant. Those who said they were Jewish were too small in number for analysis and were grouped with the “other” category, Jones says.

The groups that were the most likely to have an abortion were those affiliated with "other" religions or no religion at all, with abortion rates of 31 and 30 per 1,000 women, respectively.

- Lori Robertson

Sources

Jones, Rachel K. and Jacqueline E. Darroch and Stanley K. Henshaw. "Patterns in the Socioeconomic Characteristics of Women Obtaining Abortions in 2000-2001." The Alan Guttmacher Institute. Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, Vol. 34, No. 5, Sept./Oct. 2002.

May 23, 2012 2:48 PM  
Anonymous A lying liar from the GOTP faction in the US House said...

What do you do when you say something foolish just to excite your base (and loosen their wallets) but it's caught on tape so what you said gets you in even more trouble in what was once a very "red district" that has recently become much bluer through redistricting? Well, if you're Republican Mike Coffman you make yourself look even more ridiculous:

"Coffman had steadfastly refused to speak on camera regarding his May 12th comment at a fundraiser in Elbert County. The comments, recorded and posted online by a Coffman supporter, were first aired by 9NEWS.

"I don't know whether Barack Obama was born in the United States of America. I don't know that," Coffman told donors. "But I do know this, that in his heart, he's not an American. He's just not an American."

Informed that the comments were recorded, the Coffman campaign issued a written statement.

"I misspoke and I apologize. I have confidence in President Obama's citizenship and legitimacy as President of the United States," the statement read. "I don't believe the President shares my belief in American Exceptionalism. His policies reflect a philosophy that America is but one nation among many equals," the statement read. "As a Marine, I believe America is unique and based on a core set of principles that make it superior to other nations."

The House of Representatives is on a recess and Coffman has been lying low. On Saturday, he did not show up as expected to an event in Aurora, instead sending an aide who read a statement saying the congressman was sick. Constituents calling Coffman's district office have been told he has no public meetings or appearances during the recess.

The low-profile is a departure for the typically-accessible Coffman, who has appeared on 9NEWS (often at his request) sixteen times over the last twelve months, discussing topics as varied as payroll taxes, wildfire mitigation and the importance of Memorial Day.

When 9NEWS was unable to schedule an interview with Coffman, Reporter Kyle Clark approached him in public.

When 9NEWS was unable to schedule an interview with Coffman, Reporter Kyle Clark approached him in public."

Transcript:

KYLE CLARK: Congressman Coffman, how are you?

REP. COFFMAN: How are you doing? Good to see you.

KYLE CLARK: Good to see you. You're a tough man to find lately.

REP. COFFMAN: I am.

KYLE CLARK: Can we chat quickly before you go inside?

REP. COFFMAN: Sure.

KYLE CLARK: Alright, fantastic. Why don't we head right over here so we're out of the way. Thank you for your time. I apologize for showing up unannounced. I've been trying to call your staff. They won't return my phone calls. Let me ask you, after your comments about the President, do you feel voters are owed a better explanation than just, I misspoke?

REP. COFFMAN: I think that... Umm... I stand by my statement that I misspoke and I apologize.

KYLE CLARK: OK. And who were you apologizing to?

REP. COFFMAN: You know, I stand by my statement that I misspoke and I apologize.

KYLE CLARK: I apologize, we talk to you all the time, you're a very forthcoming guy. Who's telling you not to talk and to handle it like this?

REP. COFFMAN: I stand by my statement, that I wrote, that you have, and I misspoke and I apologize.

KYLE CLARK: Was it that you thought it would go over well in Elbert County where folks are very conservative and you'd never say something like that in the suburbs?

REP. COFFMAN: I stand by my statement that I misspoke and I apologize.

KYLE CLARK: Is there anything I can ask you that you'll answer differently?

REP. COFFMAN: You know, I stand by my statement that I misspoke and I apologize.

KYLE CLARK: Thank you, congressman.

REP. COFFMAN: Thank you."

May 24, 2012 8:42 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Have Moderate Catholics Had Enough?
May 23rd, 2012
E. J. Dionne

"WASHINGTON — There is a healthy struggle brewing among the nation’s Roman Catholic bishops. A previously silent group, upset over conservative colleagues defining the church’s public posture and eagerly picking fights with President Obama, has had enough.

The headlines this week were about lawsuits brought by 43 Catholic organizations, including 13 dioceses, to overturn regulations issued by the administration requiring insurance plans to cover contraception under the new health care law. But the other side of this news was also significant: That the vast majority of the nation’s 195 dioceses did not go to court.

It turns out that many bishops, notably the church leadership in California, saw the litigation as premature. They are upset that the lawsuits were brought without a broader discussion among the entire membership of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops and wanted to delay action until the Conference’s June meeting.

Until now, bishops who believed that their leadership was aligning the institutional church too closely with the political right had voiced their doubts internally. While the more moderate and liberal bishops kept their qualms out of public view, conservative bishops have been outspoken in condemning the Obama administration and pushing a “Fortnight for Freedom” campaign aimed at highlighting “threats to religious freedom, both at home and abroad.”

But in recent months, a series of events – among them the Vatican’s rebuke of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious encouraged by right-wing American bishops — have angered more progressive Catholics and led to talk among the disgruntled faithful of the need for a “Catholic spring” to challenge the hierarchy’s shift to the right.

Bishop Stephen E. Blaire of Stockton, Calif., broke the silence on his side Tuesday in an interview with Kevin Clarke of the Jesuit magazine America. Blaire expressed concern that some groups “very far to the right” are turning the controversy over the contraception rules into “an anti-Obama campaign.”

“I think there are different groups that are trying to co-opt this and make it [a] into political issue, and that’s why we need to have a deeper discussion as bishops,” he said. “I think our rhetoric has to be that of bishops of the church who are seeking to be faithful to the Gospel, that our one concern is that we make sure the church is free to carry out her mission as given to her by Christ, and that remains our focus.”

Clarke also paraphrased Blaire as believing that “the bishops lose their support when the conflict is seen as too political.”

Blaire’s words were diplomatic. But in a letter to the national bishops’ conference that has not been released publicly, lawyers for California’s bishops said the lawsuits would be “imprudent” and “ill-advised.” The letter was not answered by the national bishops’ group before the suits were announced.

Already, there are reports that some bishops will play down or largely ignore the Fortnight for Freedom campaign, scheduled for June 21 to July 4, in their own dioceses. These bishops fear that it has become enmeshed in Republican election-year politics and see many of its chief promoters, notably Archbishop William E. Lori of Baltimore, as too strident.

May 24, 2012 8:59 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The irony in the current acrimony is that Catholics were broadly united last January across political lines in opposing the Department of Health and Human Services’ initial rules on contraception because they exempted only a narrow category of religious institutions from the mandate.

Facing this challenge, the president fashioned a compromise under which employees of Catholic organizations such as hospitals and social service agencies would still have access to contraceptive services but the religious entities would not have to pay for them. This compromise was accepted by most progressive Catholics, though many of them still favor rewriting the underlying regulations to acknowledge the religious character of the church’s welfare and educational work.

But where the progressives favor pursuing further negotiations with the administration, the conservative bishops have acted as if it never made any concessions at all. Significantly, Blaire identified with the conciliatory approach. As Clarke wrote, “Bishop Blaire believes discussions with the Obama administration toward a resolution of the dispute could be fruitful even as alternative remedies are explored.”

For too long, the Catholic Church’s stance on public issues has been defined by the outspokenness of its most conservative bishops and the reticence of moderate and progressive prelates. Signs that this might finally be changing are encouraging for the church, and for American politics.

May 24, 2012 8:59 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“Just as there are many people who are attracted to both genders and often decide because of social pressure to only allow themselves heterosexual relationships there are transgendered children that may feel more or less strongly about being born in the wrong body and decide due to social pressure to conform and live as their birth gender. The transgendered feelings haven't changed in the slightest, only the person's willingness to suppress their sense of self has changed.”


When have you become the spokesperson for the changed individuals? Were you there with the Dr. when he made these observations? Where is your proof with children suppressing their emotions? We are talking about children? Their brain is not mature. The Dr. didn’t say all, he said about 80%. Feelings change. How many boyfriends or girlfriends does one have in growing up? Feelings change.
BTW, don’t we all have to conform to social pressures on a lot of things in order to keep our self healthy and safe? Driving the speed limit? Bushing our teeth?

May 24, 2012 9:44 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And mentally healthy and safe, too, by not judging other pe0ple's lives, fighting our own bigotry and ignorance, showing contempt for people who might live differently from you.

Unfortunatly...social pressures on individuals who exhibit such unhealthy life-styles seem to have little effect on some who are so obviously condescending and self-righteous people.

May 25, 2012 10:30 AM  

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