Tuesday, November 04, 2008

One Nation

Now it's time for us all to pitch in on the hard job of restoring pride, prosperity, and peace across the land, for Red and Blue alike.

We have learned from our mistakes. Now let's move forward together with resolve to make America a better country, and the world a better place.

What a country! Congratulations to all of us.

58 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

We are once again UNITED!

Blue is peace, red is anger.

Blue wins. It has always been my favorite color.

President Obama!!

PS-I am in Mexico right now and people are out in the streets cheering. This is truly a wondeful evening. I am going out to join them!

November 04, 2008 11:32 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Andrea

PRESIDENT OBAMA.

Today,America and the world have changed.

November 04, 2008 11:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Blue is peace, red is anger."

You might want to stay south of the border, Drick.

The rest of us are moving on to build a great future not dwell on past resentments.

November 04, 2008 11:52 PM  
Blogger JimK said...

Derrick, I'm tired of fighting between Red and Blue. Yeah, I'm a Blue kind of guy, but I don't have anything against a person who chooses to live a Red life. In fact I have a lot of respect for hard-working people with deep faith in God and a strong conscience, as long as they apply their values to their own lives and judge not. We don't all have to agree on everything, we don't all have to be the same to live together happily.

We need to stand steadfast for what's right, and remain vigilant, but I hope this change signals the end of the bitterness that has become the flavor of the recent decade.

JimK

November 04, 2008 11:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree, Jim.

United is better than divided.

I think we are all happy that our future has been changed for the better.

And, AnonBigot-- I am even happy that your future has bee made brighter.

YES WE DID!

November 05, 2008 12:37 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What a beautiful day! It was good to see the bipartisan and maverick McCain that we all miss and love make that concession speech last night. He called for all of us to unite and work to get this great country out of this big mess we're in. And it was wonderful to hear Obama reach out to supporters and non-supporters alike. We have a lot of work to do to get this country back on track to peace and prosperity and it's time for all of us to roll up our sleeves and get on with it.

"You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one"

November 05, 2008 7:42 AM  
Blogger Priya Lynn said...

A week or two ago Sara Palin said the election was in god's hands and the right thing would be done. So according to her god wanted Barack Obama to be president.

November 05, 2008 10:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Andrea- not anon
Sorry but I have to do this.

I am confused- where is President-elect Huckabee?

yes, Priya, we have a gas station near us run by right wingers- and their sign said something like- Whatever happens, Tuesday is in God's hands, not man. Now I disagree(I don't think God votes) but I guess they have to accept that God wanted Obama.

November 05, 2008 10:31 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Last night, i have never seen another woman look more stunning & beautiful, more graceful and elegant, and yet still as strong as it gets, as i did watching the few shots showed of Sarah Palin last night.

She is to me, intelligent, beautiful, completely stunning in her sensual elegance as a woman, and carries herself in a manner that she knows all of these things about herself.

I truly fell in love with her for the first time, last night, seeing her on that stage in defeat, but with a look of such beauty, and womanly strength mixed with what i can only describe in my perception as complete graciousness and humility, that sparkled in her in her eyes unlike anything i have even seen before.

As a woman, trans or not, i must confess, no matter what anyone thinks of her politics or her theology, she has carried herself with utter distincttion in what is the most trying and difficult of political processes in this nation.

She rose and wore well a place of great respect in her party and in the world, and i literally cried in deep real heartbreaking sadness for several minutes last night, wishing in all of my heart that i had voted for her, and for the feeling of betraying such a woman to not give her this chance of a lifetime.

A woman that, to me, in so many ways, engenders the ultimate expressions of female beauty, strength, sensuality, intelligence, motherhood, and genuine love for her country and her family.

Say what you will - what possibilities could've held for her, and for all of us, in her living the challenges of such an office.

I wanted to tell her all of these things, and hope i will get the chance someday.

As this is the best i can do at the moment, so be it.

Whether male, female, trans, gay straight, other, white black, or any other color or culture that exists, i am still an American - we ALL are, regardless of the differences, and i love my country - very, very much.

I like very much and deeply respect John McCain - his warmth, his humor, his charisma and intelligence, and his unrelenting and empassioned commitment of service to the country he loves and belives in, for most all of his life now.

I hope people can feel the value of the lessons that such a great servant can give to all of us, and hear his words of solidarity and fellowship amongst ourselves and one another, no matter the issue.

What a truly interesting and miraculous time in all of our lives. May God bless them all - may God bless us all as their fellow Americans, no matter which side of the aisle we are all standing.

With great sadness, wonder, a sense of real regret for not seeing the real grace of such a woman, another incredible woman - not being able to actualize such a chance.

I will ask the Lord my God, and her spirit, such as it is, for all the understanding that there is, and hope we can all prevail, in every way possible, to actually live closer to our highest ideals and come together more now as a people, and simply as human beings, than ever before.

Within ourselves, and to and for one another, all of us fellow citizens in the greatest country in all the world, in such difficult times of incredibly momentous change for all of us.

Great love, may peace and well- being grace our lives and our hopes and for the good of all our children, as yet to come.

Congratulations to President-Elect Obama, and all of his family, and for the example of real potential greatness, and the possiblility that his incredible victory has shown us all still may yet exist in this country.

My he keep himself and hs service well and in good order, and with real integrity, as the highest servant of the people's will in this country.

Sincerely and respectfully,
LoveForever,


Maryanne

November 05, 2008 11:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"You may say that I'm a dreamer"

This hits it right on the nail. Obama really doesn't have much experience or a record so the vote represents a dream.

It was touching to watch the emotions of blacks who now have no doubts about their place in our society and to that extent yesterday was a celebration for all Americans.

Still, Obama is quite a roll of the dice. We all wish him well and I myself hope we hit the lottery. But there's not much to base that hope on at present.

"A week or two ago Sara Palin said the election was in god's hands and the right thing would be done. So according to her god wanted Barack Obama to be president."

That's correct. Christians believe in God's sovereignty and are commanded to pray for our leaders.

Stop by any evangelical church this Sunday and you'll hear them pray for the new president-elect.

"I am confused- where is President-elect Huckabee?"

You sure are confused. He's got a new TV show on cable. I saw him do a great interview with Lorne Michaels and Seth Myers last week about the influence of SNL on this year's election. He's found a niche and has a platform to continue to speak to the American people. One of many young leaders who surfaced during this campaign that the Republicans now have in their stable for 2012, he's not going away.

"we have a gas station near us run by right wingers- and their sign said something like- Whatever happens, Tuesday is in God's hands, not man"

You really are confused, Andrea. This just reveals the need for religious education in America's public schools. Anyone who thinks someone who believes the world is in God's hands is automatically a right-winger is ignorant.

We argue that kids need to be educated about sex because so many become sexually active. Doesn't the same apply to religion? Doesn't lack of education about predominant religions in our society lead to susceptibility to dangerous cults or irrational materialism?

I think President Obama will be open to the idea.

November 05, 2008 12:01 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Guys, I hate to bring it up but referendums on banning gay marriage passed in Florida and Arizona and lead in California, although there is a slight chance that the complete vote will eke out a victory for gays. In addition, Arkansas banned gays from adopting children.

Seems the pro-family movement remains intact and viable.

November 05, 2008 12:08 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The California, Arizona, Florida and Arkansas votes are disappointing.

On a few bright notes, Gay Marriage becomes legal in Connecticut next week and the anti-gay attempt to start a Constitutional hthere failed.

Marilyn Musgrave (author of the Federal Marriage Amendment, and not so much a friend of Queer people) got trounced.

For myself, my real hopes for President Obama are 1)health care for all Americans; and 2) an end to the anti-gay policies in the military. Marriage can wait.

rrjr

November 05, 2008 12:43 PM  
Blogger Unknown said...

“That's correct. Christians believe in God's sovereignty and are commanded to pray for our leaders.”

Sovereignty-wise speaking, doesn’t God give you those prayers to pray with in the first place?

November 05, 2008 12:47 PM  
Blogger Priya Lynn said...

Bad anonymous agrees with Sara Palin that the election was in "god's" hand. Too bad that contradicts the right winger's insistance that their god gave man free will. Typical right wingers, contradicting themselves left and right when it comes to their superstitions.

November 05, 2008 1:34 PM  
Blogger Priya Lynn said...

Polls showed that around the world people overwhelmingly supported Obama over Mccain. Now that Obama's been elected he can begin rebuilding the U.S's damaged reputation around the world.

November 05, 2008 1:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Andrea- not anon.
Maryanne- you are very wrong. Sarah Palin ran a racist, divisive, smallminded campaign. Her lack of education, her poor intellect and her lack of human decency give her no reason to have a place in our government. I look forward to her return to Alaska- where apparently lack of character, lack of intellect, dishonesty and total self-centeredness are cherished. Her nomination was an insult to women - and nothing will ever change my opinion. I am glad that she was selected as the VP candidate- it meant the Republicans could not win. Her candidacy tore apart the Repulbican party and they will have to go far to mend themselves. John McCain, a man who served his country in war and peace- and who suffered greatly in Vietnam- will regret accepting her(I'm sure he already does) and for being part of a campaign that was built on lies, defamation and attacks. I guarantee when he leaves politics he will write a book about the disaster that his campaign became- and Palin will play a large part.

November 05, 2008 3:21 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Andrea -not anon
The gas station owners are clearly right wing because of the gigantic Bush -Cheney sign they had inthe last election, their support for the showernuts(they had a petition signing on their property) and the recent giant McCain/Palin sign.

November 05, 2008 3:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I can agree with Maryanne that Palin looked beautiful last night, carried herself well, and that we can all relate to her "not being able to actualize such a chance." But if you ask me, Palin's assets are skin deep. I more strongly agree with Andrea because just about every time Palin opened her mouth, what came out was awful.

McCain represents the best of the GOP -- bipartisan, patriotic, and pragmatic. Palin represents the worst of the GOP -- divisive, arrogant, and militantly religious. As the GOP begins to reassess itself and look for a leader to unite them, I hope they find someone more like McCain and less like Palin.

November 05, 2008 3:58 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Sarah Palin ran a racist,"

let's hear an example of this slander; never happened

"divisive,"

like how?

"smallminded campaign."

like how?

"Her lack of education,"

Ever look at Biden's class rank; he wasn't paying much attention

"her poor intellect"

an ignorant and baseless comment

"and her lack of human decency"

let's have one example

"McCain represents the best of the GOP -- bipartisan,"

Reports are she was able to strike bipartisan compromises in Alaska; Obama might do that too but so far there's no evidence he will

"patriotic,"

unbelievable

"and pragmatic."

there are many examples in her executive experience of her displaying this quality

"Palin represents the worst of the GOP -- divisive,"

didn't divide anybody

"arrogant,"

she was confident but certainly no less so than Obama and with more basis

"and militantly religious."

like how? she belonged to a religion that isn't militant

Truth is, Palin was every bit as qualified as Obama. Granted she didn't have a Ivy League education. She comes from humble beginnings. She accomplished much and showed remarkable skill.

The case against her was sexist.

November 05, 2008 5:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I spoke from my heart. It is neither right nor wrong - and for anyone to judge it as such - per example - Andrea said to me ("you are very wrong") - it just IS.

I cannot rewind my experiential timeline in life, and correct and change what my heart gave me to feel and see and become consumed with in that single moment.

You cannot claim the right to tell me nor anyone that the single moments' content of a feeling and compassionate heart is right nor wrong. It is mine to share, NOT yours. None of you can.

In fact - how dare you ?!

I spoke from my heart exactly as it spoke to me last night as i cried for the woman i suddenly realized i liked, loved, and respected more than i ever thought possible.

It came like a flash in an unexpected moment - one that defied all logic and reason, and contained only the force of emotional content and gut will of instinct and nothing else - - and i paid it heed in that moment - and i cried like the little girl that part of me most assuredly still is - - for the likes of a beautiful sister -

one i could never quite find the unconditional strength of love within myself to truly appreciate, because of my own personal and political and "logical" filters until that moment, when for some reason, they were just simply cleared from the sight of my heart.

One that has now lost her best place in the single most important contest of her lifetime thus far, and i cried for what i saw in her eyes in that moment, as the girl, as a woman, and for how i also contributed very personally to that loss for her by not giving her my vote.

Maybe this is natural.

My wife - my very best friend in this life - also felt many of these same things, and we quietly agreed that we had both felt this thing for what ever reason it came to us.

This was extremely personal, excruciatingly painful, and i have shared this thing with all of you.

This is passion and compassion. Not logic. Not reason. Not politics. Not policy or political correctness.

I threw every single bit of that out of the window when i shared this and took all the risks to really speak the truth of my heart and my feelings, in that moment - a personally significant moment for me, in an as yet uexplainable reason, and not by my mind, nor my logic.

That does not originate from policy, nor education, nor party. I am speaking about her as a woman, from the perpective of the woman that I am, and nothing else.

Should anyone think less of me, for speaking the raw truth of feelings from my heart in a single moment in the life of that heart, that cannot and WILL NOT be my burden to carry.

I cleared my conscience, as a fellow human being, a fellow citizen,,, as the girl i know i am, and as the woman i strive to be with all my might, when i spoke from that moment in my heart on this subject.

I was compelled to do this thing, and have sent her this exact letter directly, as well, to her own offices in Juneau.

I hope it will get read and maybe -just maybe, one chance in a million, she will see it, and as a human being - as a beaufiul woman and a stunning girl that she is, will smile and feel the warmth of appreciation for real unbiased loving compassion, against the cold hard steel of such a massive loss, and along with that what so many others have most assuredly also sent to her as well..

I simply will say nothing further. It will do no good as i have already given you all that there was to give, in that moment in my life.

To ask, or expect, or correct me of anything else, is not going to be my problem. That is for you to think about, grapple with, and express if you must.

Most Sincerely and respectfully yours.

As always,

I am,


Maryanne

November 05, 2008 7:24 PM  
Blogger BlackTsunami said...

the phony pro-family groups are intact for the moment. I have a feeling that things will be a bit different with the Republican party reorganization

and also even though they achieved victory, they aren't exactly happy over it. They know that an Obama administration (DAMN THAT FEELS GOOD TO SAY) means that victories like what they had will most likely be few and far in between.

November 05, 2008 7:28 PM  
Blogger Orin Ryssman said...

Congratulations to President-elect Barack Obama and the Democratic...hey, if he delivers on half of what he has promised I will do better, and I like that ALOT.

Still, I wonder if anyone out in Blue-land is suffering from a bit of cognitive dissonance about the vote in California: Prop 8 passed, and with 70% of African Americans voting in its favor.

So, anyone need help understanding this?

November 05, 2008 10:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Does anyone need help understanding an estimated 2 million to 3 million provisional and absentee ballots remained to be tallied, more than enough to change the half million difference between the two sides tallied so far/

November 05, 2008 11:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Orin and AnonBigot-

Why should civil rights be left up to a popular vote?

November 06, 2008 12:42 AM  
Blogger Zoe Brain said...

"Today, I want to speak to every person who voted for my opponent. To make this nation stronger and better, I will need your support, and I will work to earn it. I will do all I can do to deserve your trust."

Well, that worked real well, didn't it?

Expect all the insane slime and vitriol heaped on Bush to be returned on Obama. Instead of the malicious insanity of Bush Derangement Syndrome, the insane malice of Rabid Obamaphobia.

One day, I hope soon, we'll realise that it's not Red vs Blue, Right vs Left, but rational vs irrational that's the problem.

November 06, 2008 3:46 AM  
Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

Our President-Elect, Orin, is a man whose parents' marriage was illegal in many states, and on the national level, 41 years ago.

I respect you, and your beliefs, but you are no better than me or others, and do not deserve rights to which I am not entitled.

November 06, 2008 6:22 AM  
Blogger Orin Ryssman said...

Dana writes,

Our President-Elect, Orin, is a man whose parents' marriage was illegal in many states, and on the national level, 41 years ago.

Interesting tidbit, but not relevant to the controversy at hand. African Americans, of all groups, understand the racial basis and difference between laws intended to keep men and women separated based on race, and laws to maintain what marriage is about: the UNION of a man and a woman.

I respect you, and your beliefs, but you are no better than me or others, and do not deserve rights to which I am not entitled.

Have I ever said that? And yes, you are entitled to get married if you qualify based upon the terms it is offered to everyone: one man and one woman. You, and a few others are free to decline such an offer, but as friendly as American society has become to gays and lesbians you are not free to so radically redefine a core social institution. That is what the vote in California on Prop 8 was about, and it is time for the losing side to grow up, accept the result and move on.

November 06, 2008 9:06 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Unfortunately it seems that a lethal combination of black religious community voters and the huge investment of money and so-called "moral suasion" put forth by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints seems to have, at this time, ended the hopes of GLBT citizens for attaining the full, and same, civil rights guaranteed to other residents of California. As long as we have this fusion of civil/religious identification of marriage, GLBT citizens will always have a huge impediment in attaining those equal rights in this country.
However,this might be the last barrier against full and equal civil rights in this country...but thoughtful and educated citizens of this country have begun to recognize the injustice of inequality...and this barrier to full equality will FALL.
RT

November 06, 2008 9:14 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Obama has succeeded in bringing massive participation by blacks in our political process. If this group, which previously had low turnout on election day, continues to participate, this is a good sign for pro-family causes.

Of the three components of the Republican of the last several decades, blacks have not yet been convinced on pro-growth economics policies and libertarianism, for the most part, but they do support pro-family principles in greater proportion than the general population.

Thanks, Barack!

November 06, 2008 9:36 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Orin:
Let's change your wording: "you are entitled to get married if you qualify based upon the terms it is offered to everyone: one man and one woman" to say: You are entitled to get married if you qualify based unpon the terms it is offered to everyone: one white man to one white woman (or one black man to one black woman).

What is the difference in your mind?

If we recognized and accepted your belief that "you are not free to so radically redefine a core social institution" miscegenation would still be recognized as the prevailing legal barrier to marriage.

We are not a stagnant democratic society (despite the discredited attempts of a failed Republican administration over the past 8 years) but a dynamic, changing social institution in which citizens are encouraged to "radically redefine a(ny) core social institution"...even if you disagree and persist in holding on to your dated 18th century definition of who determines what the "core social institutions" are.
This attempt to hold on to a questionable definition of "marriage", like other discredited attempts in the past to prevent full equality rights for all of our citizens, is doomed to be dumped into the "dustbin of history." (and, please, spare me and us from your unctuous lectures on this and other topics!)
Diogenes

November 06, 2008 9:37 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"What is the difference in your mind?"

Race isn't part of the definition of marriage and never was. If racist America once forbade blacks and whites to marry, even then, both blacks and whites still married, within their race, heterosexually. Moreover, if a black and white did marry, no on said it didn't fit the definition of marriage.

"even if you disagree and persist in holding on to your dated 18th century definition of who determines what the "core social institutions" are.
This attempt to hold on to a questionable definition of "marriage", like other discredited attempts in the past to prevent full equality rights for all of our citizens, is doomed to be dumped into the "dustbin of history.""

18th century? 36 states have ruled that marriage is a union between male and female.

Seems a 21st century notion to me!

November 06, 2008 9:45 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon asked:

“Does anyone need help understanding an estimated 2 million to 3 million provisional and absentee ballots remained to be tallied, more than enough to change the half million difference between the two sides tallied so far/”

Actually we don’t need help understanding Anon. I’m going to go out on a limb here and presume you were the same Anon who predicted McCain would win a few days ago because the national polls were showing McCain’s lag diminishing by a few points. You discounted the Electoral College map information because you said the information was based on averages of data that was a couple of weeks old, and the only information that counted was the most recent. You seem to be operating under the false presumption that the national average and the popular vote determines the outcome of the race. It does not.

I recommend studying up on the Electoral College – I’ll post the link again since it appears to have been completely disregarded the first time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_college

From the electoral map: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/
You can see that without counting Missouri and North Carolina, Obama has 349 votes and McCain has 163 – less than half as many. In order for those outstanding “2 to 3 million provisional and absentee ballots” to make a difference, they would have to go against the prevailing votes already counted and be spread out in exactly the right way to maximize their effect on states that had particularly close races, say Indiana for example. You may also note the results of this map (and Obama’s win) match pretty well with the predictions that were being made last week.

There is indeed the chance for absentee ballots to change the vote. However, the chance for this reversing the win of the Electoral College vote is extremely small. I would say just slightly above the chance that the Large Hadron Collider produces a black hole next week that sucks in and collapses the planet earth and our entire solar system. As you may know, there are people that fear this possibility. A website has been created just so folks can check to see if this has happened or not: http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com/

You may want to go to this same site to see if absentee ballots have made McCain the winner yet.

Have a nice day,

Cynthia

November 06, 2008 10:01 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually Cynthia, I was referring to the 2-3 million uncounted ballots that were cast in the State of California that contain votes on their state referendum on Prop 8. I was offering to explain that among the ballots still uncounted there are likely enough to make up the half a million vote difference between YES ON 8 and NO ON 8 so that the NO ON 8 side might still win.

November 06, 2008 10:26 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I’m going to go out on a limb here and presume you were the same Anon who predicted McCain would win a few days ago because the national polls were showing McCain’s lag diminishing by a few points."

You're on the wrong limb. I think the post you were reacting to was a TTFer holding out a ridiculous hope that the California vote on gay marriage would be changed by the uncounted votes.

November 06, 2008 10:27 AM  
Blogger Dana Beyer, M.D. said...

Orin,

What is quite evident is that among older folks, where homophobia is still rampant, along with misogyny, voted against marriage equality (just as they voted for McCain). The kids are fine with equality, so we will win this, even if later. But we will have marriage in NY and NJ shortly, and Maryland in the not-too-distant future.

We will now fully engage the homophobia in the black church, as President-elect Obama already has done. The playing field finally having been evened, we can now speak together as equals.

The battle in CA is far from over, and the Mormon church, which clearly doesn't understand that marriage is between one man and one woman, and which fueled most of the campaign on hate, will now suffer the consequences. Mitt Romney is finished as a Presidential hopeful.

November 06, 2008 10:43 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Seems the pro-family movement remains intact and viable.

It appears the "hate gays" part of the "pro-heterosexual-family" movement is still barely eeking out success, but part of that movement appears to be in tatters. Two anti-choice initiatives, one in Colorado and one in South Dakota, failed.

South Dakota Abortion Ban Fails In South Dakota, this ban failed by 10 percentage points while McCain carried the state by 8 percentage points.

And Dobson's very own "personhood starts at conception" vote failed by huge (73-27) margins in Colorado.

November 06, 2008 10:57 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Orin

You keep talking about the distinctions between legitimacy of marriage based on gender and those based on race. I'm not asking you to explain again, since I've read you explanations, but I really don't understand the difference you are underlining. I like you, and I hate to say it, but I think you're willing to express some intolerance towards gay people which you're not willing to express based on race. If I'm wrong, and you think lgbt people are just as good as straight people, let me know.

rrjr

November 06, 2008 11:18 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I continue to be disappointed in and see the need to oppose the disapproval of queer people in the African-American and African communities.

Nevertheless, this homophobia doesn't affect mostly white lg couples wanting to marry, but instead is a great burden on gay members of those communities. It's very hard to be queer and black.

November 06, 2008 11:20 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This essay by John Corvino, a philosophy professor at Wayne State University, from today's Los Angeles Times focuses on inevitability:
"a bare majority of California voters sent a discriminatory message: You are not good enough for marriage. Your relationships -- no matter how loving, how committed, how exemplary -- are not "real" marriage.

But "real" marriage transcends state recognition of it. And that's another reason why this debate will continue. Because it's not just about what California should or should not legally recognize. It's also about what sort of relationships are morally valuable, and why. And that's a debate that, slowly but surely, gay-rights advocates are winning.

The path to inclusion is not always direct and the pace of change almost never steady. This setback is by no means a final verdict. In the coming years, gay and lesbian citizens will continue to tell our stories. We will demonstrate that, like everyone else, we are worthy of having someone to have and to hold, for better or for worse. More Americans will realize that such relationships are a good thing -- not just for us but for the community at large.

When the smoke from this battle clears, Americans will realize that gays are not interested in confusing children or in forcing princesses on little girls who don't want them. But they also will realize that, when girls grow up to love princesses, they deserve to live happily ever after too."

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-corvino6-2008nov06,0,2269846.story

Popular votes on determination of civil rights for American citizens will soon join the Ford Edsel as a quaint aberration.
RT

November 06, 2008 11:25 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Andrea- anon
How dare I, Maryanne? Because I live here in the US- and I have every right to say your opinion is wrong. As I posted on teach the facts, you have a right to your rhapsody about Palin and I have every right to say what I see in her. Believe what you want, feel what you want and say what you want but I can still say you are wrong- just as I can to anyone else. I do not value your feelings or beliefs more than my own and see no reason to allow what you say to go unopposed.

November 06, 2008 11:57 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

maybe you should allow yourself the luxury of an unexpressed opinion, Andrea

how dare you deny yourself such a luxury?

November 06, 2008 12:15 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Andrea -

You are staple ally of fairness here on this board as long as i have been here. Well enough.

You are entirely correct, and some of that "how dare you" was my building knee-jerk emotional reactions to much negative feedback, and even some complete rudeness from others since i made this posting.

I wish people would read between the lines, and take the time to actually get what i am saying.
What i wrote was for compassion's sake, and from my own heart of emotion no matter how illogic it may seem to you or someone else.

I repeatedly and CLEARLY qualified exactly that point, so that no other motive or political intent on my part would be read into what i said or how i said it.

Of course you are 100% entitled to express your feelings, but to tell me mine are wrong and must be opposed - i questioned that.

These are emotional, gut instinct, non-politic, non-partisan, FEELINGS. and as such, should not be judged in my opinion as either right nor wrong. They just are.

No one seems to be getting this, and if you had actually taken the time to read everything i wrote, not just here, but on the TTF listserve as well, you would see how i pointed out obvious rudeness, judgementalism, and complete hyposcrisy on the part of some of the respondents.

I responded to those issues in a mostly gracious, extremely intelligent, and very bluntly frank manner, and have been told to silence myself.

Unconditional love, fairness, and respectful dialogue was thrown out the window along with me, i am afraid, as a result of my honesty. I dont feel this is intelligent or correct, but so it stands.

I am being asked to close my mouth and frankly, it stinks to hell and back that such a bastion of supposedly fairminded people would act this way just because one member of the community expresses a very personal and very emotional experience of nothing but compassion and understanding for a fellow citizen, no matter their politics.

It has been met with vitriol, hatred, anger, disgust, rudeness, and now direct as well as public insult.

As many risks as i have taken to support this communities' efforts in the last year or two, and this is what i get for a single opinion of honest emotion.

Ridiculous. This is unacceptable and highly hypocritical of all that have done so.

Many blessings, my apologies for inappropriate sharpness directed to any of you.

Most Sincerely and respectfully,


Maryanne

November 06, 2008 1:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What you have to realize about lunatic fringe gay advocates like Andrea is that they consider someone disagreeing with them as the equivalent of violence. They are victims postmodernistic thinking who are beyond hypocrisy because they never make claim to making sense to begin with.

They can't help it. Their genes made them do it!

November 06, 2008 4:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anon, I see that you don't know what the word "postmodern" is supposed to mean, or to imply. In fact Andrea's statement is the opposite of "postmodern," it is old-fashioned "modern." Andrea believes that there is a correct belief and an incorrect one, not that all people's beliefs are equally valid.

Here, let me make it a little postmodern for you by using a self-referential frame: in this case, as in others, you're wrong.

November 06, 2008 4:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Sarah Palin ran a racist, divisive, smallminded campaign. Her lack of education, her poor intellect and her lack of human decency give her no reason to have a place in our government. I look forward to her return to Alaska- where apparently lack of character, lack of intellect, dishonesty and total self-centeredness are cherished. Her nomination was an insult to women -"

How about all this baseless lying? Kind of extreme reaction to someone who holds a different view than Andrea. It's this extreme reaction to different opinions that constitute her postmodernism.

November 06, 2008 10:11 PM  
Blogger David S. Fishback said...

As for the breakdown of the vote on Prop 8, younger people overwhelmingly voted against reversing the California Supreme Court's decision granting equal marriage rights. And President-Elect Obama's statements including gay people in the fabric of America and urging equal rights will, in time, impact positively on the African American community. Prop 8 was a bump in the road. But, to paraphrase Dr. King, the arc of the moral universe does bend toward justice. In time, equal rights will become a reality.

As for Sarah Palin, in my view Maryanne's sense of her sees the positive symbolism while being blinded to the negative realities. While I absolutely disagree with Maryanne's subjective sense of Gov.Palin, I certainly respect her views. And those views are hurtful of no one. Hey, it would be a very boring world if all of us agreed on everything. :)

Given the spate of post-election statements by McCain staffers about Gov. Palin's extraordinary ignorance of basic facts that any elementary school student should know -- like Africa is a continent, not a country -- perhaps she should be a contestant on Jeff Foxworthy's Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader?

November 06, 2008 10:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"to paraphrase Dr. King, the arc of the moral universe does bend toward justice"

Equating anyone's race to sexual deviance is not justice, David.

"Hey, it would be a very boring world if all of us agreed on everything"

Absolutely. I don't think Andrea relizes how her extreme reactions are perceived.

"Given the spate of post-election statements by McCain staffers about Gov. Palin's extraordinary ignorance of basic facts that any elementary school student should know -- like Africa is a continent, not a country -- perhaps she should be a contestant on Jeff Foxworthy's Are You Smarter Than a Fifth Grader?"

Anyone who accepts at face value statements made by the sleaziest element of our society, political "staffers", should start a new reality show, "Are You Smarter Than Anyone?"

If there are actual people making these anonymous statements, it is likely made by the idiots who so mismanaged Palin's first few weeks and are resentful that she finally threw them off and followed her own superior instincts.

November 06, 2008 10:56 PM  
Blogger Lisa Harney said...

Zoe,

Expect all the insane slime and vitriol heaped on Bush to be returned on Obama.

We should keep in mind that Bush:

* Dragged us into a war that had nothing to do with apprehending Osama Bin Laden or fighting terrorism

* Dragged us into that war under false pretenses

* Allowed the use of torture against individuals detained without ever being charged with a crime

* Won Florida in 2000 under rather suspicious circumstances (and his brother was governor there), and the presidency, despite losing the popular vote

* Actively participated in the erosion of civil rights across the board, starting with the Patriot Act and moving forward from there

* Actively participated in the financial deregulation that led us to the current economic state of affairs

* Got the US involved in a war that consumed the national surplus that Bill Clinton left the US with when he left office. We're now in a huge deficit thanks the the hundreds of billions of dollars of American money per year that's been bankrupting the US.

I think it's pretty unfair to claim that any criticism heaped upon Bush over the past eight years is "insane slime and vitriol" when the man is quite possibly the worst president the United States has ever had. Any conservatives who decide to use their own slime and vitriol against Obama just for being president, without regard for a record he hasn't had a chance to establish yet, isn't returning any favor.

November 07, 2008 8:43 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous suggests that other people (e.g Andrea) not express their opinions? Does he/she/it not like other people's opinion when he/she/it disagrees with them?

Funnier and funnier. Hee hee.

I continue to be disappointed in California.

More insidious is Arkansas' new law, which denies lgbt people the right to form families. Florida had a similar law, but I believe their courts struck it down.

The level of bigotry involved in proposing, campaigning for and voting for such laws absolutely amazes me. There are just a bunch of people out there who don't like my kind.

November 07, 2008 11:19 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Anonymous suggests that other people (e.g Andrea) not express their opinions?"

No, I didn't. Funnier and funnier is the tumbling kaleidoscope that passes for thinking in your mind.

Have you seen a professional about that?

"I continue to be disappointed in California."

The voters of this country have spoken. It's time for the enemies of traditional marriage to accept the verdict and move on.

You had your say. We weren't convinced. Stop being divisive.

The country is rebuilding. Get of the way of you can't lend a hand 'cause the times they are a-changin'.

"More insidious is Arkansas' new law, which denies lgbt people the right to form families."

You can form any "grouping" you want, just don't expect us to call it marriage and don't try to put kids in that environment.

The voters of Arkansas said the welfare of children is the important consideration.

The gay lifestyle is not healthy.

November 07, 2008 1:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymoid, that last post dripped with vitriol, encompassing both personal and anti-lgbt insults. Have you had a bad day?

I know you get a kick out of coming online here and being nasty to people. Most blogs just don't allow that. Some of the things you have said personally to me and other people don't just skirt the borders of cyber-bullying, they go over the line.

If you were a school student, you would be disciplined.

I'm not sure why you exhibit this essentially scatalogical behavior in a public place. It makes your opinions and others who hold them look really, really bad. People point to you and say "see what kind of people are unsupportive of lgbt folk?"

You provide little pieces of wood to the fire of hate (do with that one what you will).

rrjr

November 07, 2008 3:34 PM  
Blogger Tish said...

Robert, I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the Arkansas law. The fact is that families headed by couples in same-sex union are forming and the Arkansas law can't change that. I have friends who moved from Virginia to Maryland after the births of their two sons so that they met the residency requirements for the "other" mother to adopt the boys. Adoptions legalized in one state remain legal in all states. The Arkansas law inhibits family formation for many people - including the single man who wishes to adopt his sister's children when she and her husband are killed by a drunk driver, and other straight single people who have everything to give to parentless children. I wonder how long this hateful law will stand when the ramification to people who were not the intended targets become clear?

What all of these bills do, the adoption and marriage bills, is not to prevent families from forming, but to give hatred a pass on recognizing these families. It is a way to punish parents by punishing their children.

I agree with you about the astounding bigotry behind these laws and the people who promote them. What kind of people are "your kind?" Are you not my kindred?

November 08, 2008 10:44 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I also have friends who have moved to Maryland for that reason. I agree that the Arkansas law is hateful. I think that in trying to prevent lgbt people from legalizing their relationships with their children, Arkansas has cast it's net wide and handicapped many people in protecting the children in their lives. Apparently only the Cleavers can be families in Arkansas. What did you think I said?

rrjr

November 08, 2008 3:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am, as is everyone, of many kinds. In the context of Anonymous' hatred expressed here, I am queer.

rrjr

November 08, 2008 4:52 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't think I've ever used that term here.

November 08, 2008 5:23 PM  
Blogger Tish said...

Robert I was responding to your phrase "denies lgbt people the right to form families." The reason that I said I respectfully disagree with your assessment is that lgbt people are forming families and no law can stop it. No matter what roadblocks states throw in the way, families will continue to form and grow. Other wise, we see it the same way. Arkansas's law will hurt many children who might otherwise have been adopted, and it will hurt many adults who can be great parents - all because they wanted to punish people for being in same-sex unions.

I am really jarred by the "my kind" statement, whether you make it or someone else. It is a phrase that speaks from alienation. This is a huge part of what it means to be a straight ally - we do not accept that our gay sons and brothers and lesbian daughters and sisters are any kind but our own kind. We do not take kindly to the implication that yours are not real families because our families are the ones you come from.

November 08, 2008 10:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I was being ironic. It's a turn on the classic phrase "we don't like your kind."

November 09, 2008 6:59 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Read that as 'classic racist's phrase "we don't like your kind" or "we don't want your kind here."' I was attempting to underscore Anonymous' demeaning of lgbt people with his name-calling.

I don't think you disagree with me at all on the Arkansas law. LGBT people form families, few states and countries in this world recognize them legally, Arkansas made it more difficult; they effectively outlawed lgbt families, much as anti-miscegenation laws did.

Prejudice is a poor substitute for thought.

rrjr

November 09, 2008 7:05 AM  

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